Redditor fights Jaclyn Friedman’s accusations of Men’s Rights misogyny with … more misogyny

Proper credentials are very important in internet arguments

Proper credentials are very important in internet arguments

Well, so far this is my favorite response to Jaclyn Friedman’s American Prospect piece on the Men’s Rightsers and that woman-hating problem of theirs. Because what better way to refute charges of misogyny than by declaring derisively that you “can usually spot whether or not a woman wrote a piece by the first few sentences?”

Let’s let rjworks13 explain just why Friedman lacks the intellectual heft to be taken seriously by serious men with credentials — sorry, CREDENTIALS — like him:

rjworks13 3 points 5 hours ago (4|1)  I'm still uncertain if posting these pamphleteer hack writers should be posted in this men's rights forum. Hear me out. CREDENTIALS: I'm a long-time trained technical and creative writer from male-based military training and put to use over 20 years. I've gotten so gifted (or cursed) that I can usually spot whether or not a woman wrote a piece by the first few sentences. I'm probably one of the few males who have read all of Susan Faludi's work - she's actually an impressive writer, feminist or no.  Jaclyn Friedman is a hack huckster. She's at the low end of the feminist writer pool with a Master's of Fine Arts in Creative Writing. Not impressive. Her claim to fame is to act as rear guard for Women, Action and the Media (WAM), a watchdog organization to exploit the missives of any opposition to the feminist movement which now controls the media. Unlike Susan Faludi, her intent is not to give any men's groups a fair shake. Notice how she took down every sub-group of the MRM. That's her strategy - to flesh out any and all real or perceived faults with the MRM by attacking it's sub-parts. Her writes are propaganda in style telling women how to think about MRAs, MGTOW and man (including players) in general. Our response should be simply that we dismiss anything written or published by Jaclyn Friedman and those like her.  MRMs should practice and demonstrate a standing rule. "We do not recognize individuals or groups who use deceptive rhetoric, lies, indifference propaganda or hate tactics, to shore up opposition against the the benevolent efforts of egalitarianism of any sexual orientation, seeking the manifestation of legislative egalitarian values." My 2 cents.

Oh boy.

I have to say that very favorite sentence of all in this wondrous bit of HeManWomanHatersplaining is this one, if it can even be called a sentence:

CREDENTIALS: I’m a long-time trained technical and creative writer from male-based military training and put to use over 20 years.

Oy. I can only assume from the evidence of this, er, sentence, that as a technical writer his job is to make sure that instruction manuals are as unreadable as possible. And that his “creative” writing most likely consists of many volumes of self-published Gorean porn.

If you want to compare Jaclyn Friedman’s CREDENTIALS with his, you can always go to her Wikipedia entry. I looked around a bit for rjworks13′s Wikipedia entry, but he doesn’t seem to have one.

rjworks13 was evidently so proud of this bit of writing of his that he deleted it. Luckily, I grabbed a screenshot beforehand. ABS: Always Be Screenshotting.

PS What’s “indifference propaganda?”

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Posted on October 26, 2013, in antifeminism, gross incompetence, mansplaining, men who should not ever be with women ever, MRA, reddit and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 257 Comments.

  1. No, no pressure, I just thought I’d better say straight off I’m not likely to contribute. :)

    Totally with you on keeping it fun.

    Niters!

  2. ‘Night Ophelia!

    And yeah, given the cost of hosting if no one already has server space to spare, the free .com version is fine by me. Not going to make this cost money just so I can play with PHP!

    It’d make more sense to start a brand new shiny blog than work off yours though Ophelia. If we’re going .com, y’all agree on a title and a subtitle if you want one, and I’ll get things set up tomorrow? (No rush, just a title so I have something to play with the theme on, I need to distraction frm my SSI hearing!)

    Anybody want to email David and ask permission? I’m calling it a night shortly and haven’t gotten the brain cells to figure out how to explain this little project.

  3. I would love to contribute to the magazine if possible. I’d be particularly interested in stuff like criticizing terrible MRA understanding of victimization surveys and statistics in general. Sounds like great fun to me. =D

    @Athywren

    I’m onboard with the Manboobazine, btw. Those of us with male pieces could write a mansplaining column, describing the ways in which a man may sell his soul to the feminazi devils and pretend that women are people.

    As someone who has “male pieces”, I sure don’t count myself as a man. Please consider what you’re implying there (assuming that “male pieces” refer to “male” sex characteristics).

  4. I’d be more inclined to contribute to such a thing the more separation it has from Manboobz itself, not because I have anything against Manboobz (obviously) but because, if the feeling is that there’s a niche for a better feminist zine, then I’d rather just make a better feminist zine rather than a Manboobz spin-off zine. But no doubt I would contribute in any case.

  5. She’s starting to sound like a middle-class version of Alf Garnett, who was forever on about his SiL being a “Scouse git”.

    The son-in-law in question was played by Anthony Booth, Tony Blair’s future father-in-law, who for several years was the British equivalent of Neil Bush, Billy Carter or Roger Clinton. Since his political views were well to the left of Blair’s, you can probably imagine how well they got on – and how eagerly the British media lapped up anything that Booth said.

  6. @Ally

    As someone who has “male pieces”, I sure don’t count myself as a man. Please consider what you’re implying there (assuming that “male pieces” refer to “male” sex characteristics).

    I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that male characteristics = male. It was due to a combination of thoughtlessness, tiredness, and being used to assuming a male position when speaking to those who don’t recognise non-binary identities (I don’t count myself as a man either, but I don’t yet have the patience to argue with those who do.) that I wrote, then failed to see the issue with it. I’ll try to avoid these sorts of mistakes in the future. I’m sorry if I offended you.

  7. Argenti Aertheri

    Athywren — btw, what pronouns do you prefer? Gonna join me in ze / zir?

  8. I think I will. Ze’s becoming really easy to use. Plus, it puts funny sentences in my head. “Ze zaid ze zauzage zandwichez zmelled zavoury.”
    …what do you mean that isn’t funny?
    It’s so much quicker (at least cumulatively) and clearer than “s/he,” so much less squicky than “they,” and since I’ve started actually thinking about my me-ness, “he” really grates on me.
    OH! And Mx! I really like Mx.

  9. To be honest, I’m thinking this would be a none starter if we take it too seriously to begin with. I mean I don’t think it’s feasible over the internet.

    You’d need a management team who could meet in person and it might lead to all sorts of problems in the community if articles were refused, you’d need a team that was not afraid to hurt people’s feeling.

    I dunno, I was thinking, if David were to agree, of starting simple. Buying a magazine theme and just listing a bunch of loose topics that people could contribute to if they fancied it and just posting what people gave me.

    I know we said there is room for another feminist magazine, and I do think it’s a possibility in the future, but initially we’d need to see if there really is an interest and enough contributors.

    I don’t really want to take on Jezebel right this minute, and obviously that would be ridiculous when you have no clue what you are doing. I just thought we could have a go and see how it went.

    I was thinking more along the lines of SittieKittie’s grouping together of everybody’s recipes but in magazine form and then go from there if people enjoy it.
    That way there are no hurt feelings and people can read what they are interested in and leave the rest.

    I’m still willing to start small and fun and work our way up. Man Boobz has a rich community and an amalgamation of their thoughts and ideas would be a blog I would enjoy reading, but I don’t think I’m up for becoming some sort of mean editor just yet.

  10. RE: athywren

    This “almost all men are ephebophiles” thing… I don’t know… is this just proof that I really have no association with the gender I was born to, or is it just offensive bollocks intended to provide support for the manipulation of sexually immature young people into sexual situations?

    Offensive bollocks. I’m trans male, and hubby’s cis, and we both agree: offensive bollocks. (I actually have a specific turn-off from people who look too young, purely because they remind me of my younger brother, which causes an irrational, knee-jerk, “WHY AREN’T YOU IN SCHOOL YOUNG MAN” feeling.)

    RE: Manboobzine

    I admit, I think it’d be pretty cool! I dunno that I’d be deeply involved–fiction is WAY more my forte–but I wouldn’t mind doing a little article on awesome women through history! You know, a series and each one would be about one person Cleopatra, Madame Curie, Chavela Vargas, Artemesia Gentileschi, that one old doctor who faced down militants and won…

  11. Ophelia: If you were responding to me, I didn’t mean “we must immediately be Jezebel but better,” I just meant that I’d be more inclined to contribute to something called “The Super-Awesome Feminist Zine” rather than “The Manboobz Zine.”

  12. Wonderful Women zine? Wicked Womanly Wits?

  13. Oh, no sorry @katz, just a general response. I wrote it before I read your comment.
    You’re absolutely right, I was thinking that too.
    I was thinking ‘Inclusivity’ or something like that.

  14. “Feminist Ferret Fiction”

  15. Disclaimer: my 12:11 comment was just a stream of consciousness, just me worrying if I did this it would disappoint. It wasn’t aimed at anything anybody said.

  16. Also, Argenti, are you still interested in doing the theme if David agrees?

  17. Oh, yeah, what it ends up being about is moot in regards to my doing the theme.

    I had a thought earlier, it’d need a new name, cuz copyright, but we could do The Serious Side and The Lighter Side? The latter being Misogynist Trolls Say the Darnedest Things, Manboobz Mythos, etc?

  18. If this does end up being a thing, I’d really enjoy seeing alternate viewpoints. If I see one more article about the same old shit, I’m going to gag. I know we have folks from other countries here; I’d love to hear about stuff going on in THEIR parts of the world.

  19. I’m really worried, ’cause I can’t handle it if people expect too much. But I think it would be great if we had a crack at it, and I have a lot of time, so even though I’d like it to remain relatively fun, I would also work hard to make it good.

    Should I email David d’ya think?

  20. LBT, hope you’re feeling better. :)

    It would be great to break it down into sections, like you say, women in history, world feminism etc.

  21. Enh, weaker today than I was yesterday. It bites. Crutches make things easier, but I suspect this crash will continue until the housing situation improves. (Too bad looking at apartments requires MOBILITY.)

    I think I might be moving to Ohio when I can, guys. Living on $600 a month in a state where I WILL NOT find a room for less than $400 is cutting it close, even for me.

  22. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that male characteristics = male. It was due to a combination of thoughtlessness, tiredness, and being used to assuming a male position when speaking to those who don’t recognise non-binary identities (I don’t count myself as a man either, but I don’t yet have the patience to argue with those who do.) that I wrote, then failed to see the issue with it. I’ll try to avoid these sorts of mistakes in the future. I’m sorry if I offended you.

    Thanks, Athywren. I appreciate it. I’ve just been seeing cissexist nonsense all over the place these days, and I would prefer if no one had to see that stuff in a space like this.

  23. @Wetherby – I didn’t know that about Booth! Priceless! :D

    @athywren – “I think I will. Ze’s becoming really easy to use. Plus, it puts funny sentences in my head. “Ze zaid ze zauzage zandwichez zmelled zavoury.””

    Don’t mention the war!

    Also, your preferred pronouns noted. :)

    @LBT – oh good, I’m not the only person around who finds “very youthful” a turn-off and “why aren’t you in school?” as well.

    I don’t think anyone in my age range is online at present, but has anyone who is and uses a cane suddenly found they feel like an Officially Old Person? I’m getting that feeling, not least when I get offered a seat on the tram. :P

  24. Hey Ophelia, you’ve got me using smileys all over the place! :cat:

  25. I don’t think anyone in my age range is online at present, but has anyone who is and uses a cane suddenly found they feel like an Officially Old Person? I’m getting that feeling, not least when I get offered a seat on the tram.

    Random etiquette question! So, not long ago I was on the bus and this woman got on at a very busy stop and proceeded to hum and haw about young people these days being so rude and not offering their seats to older people and so on, while glaring at me. Thing is, during this rant she mentioned her age and she’s less than 10 years older than I am. What would other people have done? Since she was wearing flat, comfy-looking shoes and I was not I did not offer her my seat.

    (Nor did anyone else, including people who were noticeably younger, so I’m not quite sure why I was the target for her ire.)

  26. I looked up ‘scouse’. Now I want to try lobscouse, which means I’ll have to make it myself. Wonder what to call it so my sons will eat it? Liverpool stew is right out.

    Also, the Wikipedia article on the accent goes into amazing detail on the linguistic particularity. I can remember when you would have had to go to the library for that kind of information.

  27. “Beatles Delight”?

  28. Cassandra – hmm, an interesting conundrum.

    “You’re X years old? Here, have my seat. I’m only X – Y years old.” (Said loudly, maybe with “I know, I don’t look it” added smugly at the end if you’re feeling really snarky.)

    “What are you staring at me for? I’m X years old.”

    “Y’know snarking at the world in general isn’t going to get you a seat. Especially when you aim your ‘young people’ rant at someone your own age.”

    I dunno, nothing helpful comes to mind, only the “Damn why didn’t I say that at the time?” comments I usually think of after these situations.

    There was a woman doing a lot of staring and huffing on the tram a while back – she’d have been around a decade of my age, I reckon. I was thinking “Don’t even suggest I get up for you, lady. What part of This Is A Walking Stick do you not understand?”

  29. Oooh, another one: “Well, a nice young person offered me this seat.”

  30. I think the last one would be the winner if I’d bothered to respond. Mostly I was just going – I’m tired too, you’re very rude, I’m no spring chicken either and you’re wearing more sensible shoes than I am so piss off.

    (If it had been a person who actually was elderly or who had some sort of mobility aid with them of course I’d have given them my seat.)

  31. Yeah, she sounds like a vocal version of Huffing Tram Person. Not the Dale Carnegie recommended method of how to get a seat.

  32. Or those people who huff in outrage because there are kids on the bus/train and they’re talking. I mean, how dare they?

  33. OT again I had the funniest moment last night. Mads was standing on my bed, having a nice punch-up on the furry bedspread, when she looked up and saw …

    A GIANT CAT LOOKING AT HER

    She went all goosey-necked and goggle-eyed and bristle-furred. BUT she bravely stood her ground, then went and had a sniff (I hang my Aston coat from the kitty hanger). I think she’s figured out that it’s not a real cat. Just as well, that would be one big feline.

  34. Pittsburgh busses have the inverse problem — like, hey, college kids, take off your backpacks, move to the back of the bus, and stop blocking the bloodly fucking aisles.

    Also, learn your ABCs (this was the actual campaign name, because yes, they had to run an actual campaign) the 71A, 71B and 71C all run down Murray, please stop clogging the A!

  35. Note, I was, at most, a decade older than them, and that I would’ve been the really young freshman — usually within a five year age range. So I’m not even being a That Person but having a case of “you can get into CMU, but not handle bus etiquette?”

  36. I don’t take public transport much (lived too long in the ‘burbs/rural Northwest) but I really liked taking the subway in NYC. We had my Grandmother with us, and she only had to stand once–and that was when the train was too packed to move in.

    The funniest thing was when I was driving a couple of foreign students back to college after a short break (there were five of us in my 95 honda Civic…) and I mentioned that before I got the car I’d take Greyhound/Amtrak back home (a roughly six hour trip) and I’d liked it. The two international students–one Chinese, one Spanish–mentioned that our college had warned them against taking public transportation. I was like WTF? The worst thing that happened to me was getting stuck behind a crying baby. And I’d been taking public transportation into the city alone since I was around 15.

    Though apparently the State Pen dropped prisoners off at the local greyhound station, which might have explained the fear… but still…

    My pet peeve when it comes to trains is having to hold onto those hand-loops. I can barely reach them, and stretching to do so puts me off-balance and isn’t comfortable for more than five seconds. I’m really short.

  37. RE: wordsp1nner

    our college had warned them against taking public transportation. I was like WTF?

    WTF? My brother was the same way. I don’t get it. I freakin’ MOVED from Texas to Massachusetts via Amtrak, and I dare say it was a very smart decision! I’ve used plenty of buses, subways, and a couple trains now, and I’ve never had anything bad happen to me except some REALLY obnoxious dudebro Yankees fans going “WOOO YANKEES” constantly. (Much to the icy silence of the Red Sox fans around them.)

  38. I do not like the busses here, for reasons mostly summing to lots of people, lots of loud people. Amtrak? Fucking love it. Never minded Greyhound, but Amtrak usually has power outlets which is a nice perk. Flying? No, no, noptopus. I’m not dealing with the TSA so I can get motion sick and have my ears all wonky for 3 days.

    Of course, I ride the train, so I can totally handle public transit, for a normal workday and a normal workweek…my fucking psych seriously put that my mental state has no significant affect on my ability to handle unfamiliar places and public transit…because I visited pecunium. Livid doesn’t begin to cover it.

  39. Your psych is a fucking idiot (this is called “duh, tell us something we don’t know”). Psych (med psych, I presume) shouldn’t be practising, since zie seems to have failed Psychology 101. If someone presented to zir with agoraphobia, would she say it had no bearing on their ablility to handle spaces and crowds? If it were claustrophobia, would zie say it had no bearing on their ability to handle working in confined spaces? Zie really is a fuckwit, this one.

    wordsp1nner – I am SO with you on hand loops. Some of our trains here don’t even have them; they have horizontal bars about six inches (at most) from the roof, which are difficult for tall people to hold, let alone anyone under 6′. I always travel into town from work to get the train at the terminus and make sure I’ve got a good seat. It adds time to the journey but standing up in a crowd (especially since at that time of day it’s kids with huge backpacks and nowhere to store them except the floor – there are no luggage racks on our suburban trains – is just not something I’m prepared to do.

  40. It seems like the main consideration for this psych (and the earlier ones, honestly) is figuring out which diagnosis will cost the government the least amount of money. Zie is trying to find a way to limit the benefits for which Argenti is eligible, imo.

  41. My dad (in his sixties at the time) told me about the first time he was on public transit and a younger man got up and offered him a seat. ” I was so mad, I wanted to hit him – then I sat down and thought ‘oh, this feels good’ ” I haven’t had anyone offer me a seat yet, but I have been offered the senior discount at the dispensary. Almost time for wearing purple and a red hat that doesn’t go and doesn’t suit me.

  42. Almost time for wearing purple and a red hat that doesn’t go and doesn’t suit me.

    Be sure to post pics when you do! :)

  43. I’m a WP designer/dev – anyone wants to start an online Manboobzer mag, I am totally game. May be able to donate server space as well :) I do have lots of client projects on the go, but this would be a fun weekend project!

  44. Death&Destruction

    Well someone can be misogynistic and also right, so this argument doesn’t really matter. If anything, misogynists are often right compared to their feminist counterparts.

  45. You are a sad, strange little man. You have my pity.

  46. Death&Destuction (Compensating much?)

    Well someone can be misogynistic and also right, so this argument doesn’t really matter. If anything, misogynists are often right compared to their feminist counterparts.

    Someone could, but this one isn’t.

    But please, elaborate; show us where the misogynists are right? (also please to be explaining why you chose to be honest, and say that the counterpart to feminism is misogyny: Most of your ilk aren’t so willing to let the mask slip so quickly).

  47. It must be sad, twisted, drive-by troll day.

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