Facepalm of the day: “10 Top Tips to End False Rape Accusations,” courtesy of the Men’s Rights subreddit

This lovely poster, meant as a sarcastic response to this “10 Top Tips to End Rape” poster, has gotten 759 upvotes in the Men’s Rights subreddit. Well, 759 net upvotes. It’s actually gotten more than 1200 upvotes, and 450 downvotes. Because, clearly, trying to stop the small percentage of rape accusations that are false is totally so much more important than trying to stop rape itself. Mocking rape prevention programs and promoting a culture in which women (and men, and genderqueer people) are afraid to come forward with real stories of rape for fear of being harassed and ridiculed is really the only decent thing to do. Plus: Lulz!

Here one commenter explains the “logic” behind the poster:

The discussion is, well, what you’d expect from r/mensrights. But don’t worry: some people have stepped up to critique the poster.

That’s right, solidwhetstone, your rapey poster wasn’t rapey enough!

There is some



About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon, Time.com, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on July 17, 2012, in antifeminism, douchebaggery, false accusations, hundreds of upvotes, I'm totally being sarcastic, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, rape, rape jokes, rapey, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 147 Comments.

  1. CassandraSays

    Why is Slavey so obsessed with crossdressing and how awful it is? Is he worried that if men wear capri pants his brain will go into “dog being taunted with fresh meat” mode?

    (This makes me want to go dig out every visual kei crossdresser I can find. Wearing women’s clothes and Foreign! The horrors!)

  2. In other words, if there are 20 women applicants for a class only 20 men are permitted to enroll in that class. If not enough women want to play at computer programming, the men can’t play either.

    Yeah, nobody actually said that except the “Competitive Enterprise Institute” (they sound unbiased!), but whatever.

    But just think! If the law is actually interpreted that way, men will get the chances they never had to become nurses and teachers!

  3. In other words, if there are 20 women applicants for a class only 20 men are permitted to enroll in that class.

    I was going to respond to this but that’s some seriously low-hanging fruit. I’ll let someone do it who’s funnier than me.

  4. And,,,Cliff beat me to it.

  5. CassandraSays – It’s weird how NWO complains about men not being able to take advantage of those luxurious female office jobs and zero-work parenting roles, but the instant you offer to them he goes “EW YOU’RE GONNA MAKE ME WEAR A DRESS!!!”

  6. Genuine, unsarcastic question for NWO: why do you assume that if girls are allowed to play anything they want, they’ll only want to play dress-up games?

  7. @Cliff Pervocracy
    “God damn it, NWO, stop repeating the title of a post you didn’t read.”

    Oh I read it, Holly. I get it alright. I understood it completely. Oh he might look like a good chap, but ya never know, he could be a slavering beast. I can read the same damn thing on radfem. Every damned feminist site uses the same phrases and wording. The moderates, the radicals, the raunch gender brigade, it’s all the same. See how the patriarchy hurts men too. Gender stereotypes. Gender norms. Kyriarchy. Power dynamics.

    Here, this is the front page of the radfem hub.

    “What happens when men finally realize they can no longer suppress women’s speech? When their counter-arguments prove to be unsubstantiated and factually incorrect? When they’re forced to accept that nobody takes the word “misandry” seriously, because while “misogyny” evokes the horrors of witch-burnings, female genital mutilation, honor killings, suttee, forced lobotomies and Chinese foot-binding, “misandry” only manages to evoke the image of an overweight white dude who hates his ex-wife and gets off on punching his perceived grievances into a keyboard.”

    Now you tell me what’s the difference from radfem hub and manboobz and feministe and pandagon and anything else on the antidotes to boobery links. It’s the same damn thing. No one makes a bit of sense. Women are perfect angels. Men are perfect devils.

    I can copy and paste any article from any feminist site into any feminist site including manboobz and it fits like a glove.

    That’s on the opening page of radfem hub. It’s a perfect comment for manboobz hub. Look ya got….

    “overweight white dude who hates his ex-wife and gets off on punching his perceived grievances into a keyboard.”

    This alone is manboobz #1 comment.

    “What happens when men finally realize they can no longer suppress women’s speech?”

    Here’s #2. Hell a little while ago there was a big tadoo about you gals bitching you’ve fought way too hard to insult men and how it your bloody right to do so.

    “When their counter-arguments prove to be unsubstantiated and factually incorrect?”

    Ohhhh yeah, this is pure gold amongst the gang. Why is it unsubstantiated? Because the word unsubstantiated fell out of you mouth, that’s why.

    “When they’re forced to accept that nobody takes the word “misandry” seriously,”

    This is more manboobz gold. Why there’s no such thing as misandry. One woman has her feelings hurt and it’s universal systemic misogyny. If it’s one man it’s not misandry.

    C’mon, tell me the difference? All feminism is the same.

  8. captainbathrobe

    The Competitive Enterprise Institute are the same ones who tried to rehabilitate the image of CO2: “Carbon Dioxide–they call it pollution, we call it life.” So, yeah, they’re a right-wing think tank.

  9. CassandraSays

    @ Cliff

    Indeed, the mind of NWO seems to be an upsetting place full of conflict. Since Meller owns the title of Dunning-Kruger Man, maybe we should call NWO Cognitive Dissonance Man.

  10. “Carbon Dioxide–they call it pollution, we call it life.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… How Owly-appropriate!

  11. The whole theory of women claiming rape because they had sex they ‘regretted’ doesn’t make any LOGICAL SENSE.

    Who has sex with someone, then regretts it and THEN suddenly feels the desire to tell the police about it so afterwards they will have to repeat the story over and over again in a courtroom full of people?

    When I regret sex I keep it a secret. Lol jokes, I still tell everyone…

  12. Nope, let’s just ignore that most rape victims have been accused of doing at least one of the things on that list, and that lists like these are completely counterproductive to a culture that supports rape victims in speaking out against their attackers. All because some men took it personally when a list was created to thwart people who actually do rape, or are thinking about raping, and that none of the things on that list are things every day men are accused of doing.

  13. I don’t understand it either. Regret implies to me either some meh experience you would either try to forget (sex that was boring or something new you ate and didn’t like or an impulse purchase that now you don’t want) or something you feel sad about and want to make amends for (hurt someone’s feelings or caused an unintended injury in some way). What it doesn’t make me think of is wanting to lie about someone for some random vengeful reason and in the process put yourself through a ton of ridicule and suspicion and doubt, which is what people who bring rape accusations actually face outside of imaginary mraland. That’s why I don’t understand their whole “regret” wording.

  14. Rape is one of those things that is incredibly hard to prove, and it is the burdan of the accuser to prove that rape actually occurred. I don’t understand why these guys are so afraid of being convicted of rape because unless it’s incredibly brutal, the victim could not legally consent, or there are a bunch of eye witnesses, it’s pretty hard to prove that someone raped someone else in a court of law.

    This is the main reason I did not report when I was raped.

    First of all, I had been in a prior relationship with the person.

    Second of all, I had let him stay over at my apartment in the common area (with my housemates around) because he had an event in town and we had stayed friends.

    Third of all, I knew he was sexually frustrated, but he knew I wasn’t interested. Still, I ignored it when he said lewd things to me when I was walking around in my (not revealing at all) pajama pants/tshirt. He’d said stuff like that before without doing anything bad to me.

    Fourthly, when I woke up with him doing things on top of me, I disassociated and froze, so I never said “no” nor did I actually try and get him to get off of me (although he was practically crushing me, so I probably could not have gotten up even if I had struggled).

    Fifthly, he weighs less than I do.

    Sixthly, the rape did not involve vaginal penetration, even though he bruised my chest from the stuff he was doing to me.

    Seventhly, there really wasn’t any evidence. I let him leave when he was done without a fuss. I was so shocked about what he had done, my brain could barely process it…and the fact that he had done such a thing to me made me feel like he was capable of anything….anything horrible that I could imagine.

    Most rapes involve some level of ambiguity on the part of the rapist. The rapist does this because it’s easier to get away with the crime if everyone thinks that it could POSSIBLY have been “just sex.” Most people would prefer to think that it was just “sex gone wrong” or “sex that was regretted” instead of an actual heinous crime that most people seem to only associate with scary monsters jumping out of bushes with knives.😦

  15. Nanasha – I’m so sorry that happened to you.

    I had a similar experience. Same problems–prior relationship, no obvious evidence, and mostly that afterwards I was just so glad it was over and I was away from him, I wasn’t even thinking in terms of “hey, that was an actual crime, you’re allowed to report things like that” until months later.

    Honestly I’m not even sure that with a perfect legal system all rapes would be prosecutable. But they ought to be at least recognized as things that happen and are real.

  16. Nanasha, hugs if you want them. And I think you’re incredibly strong to write about what happened to you so clearly.

    I have a theory that some men (the ones who probably aren’t rapists but stick up for them) are afraid they’re going to rape somebody accidentally. I know that sounds weird, but if you imagine that you believe that women don’t really like sex…(quit laughing)…and that we only have sex with men for the other parts of the relationship, then you’d never be able to tell if we were enthusiastically consenting or not, because we’d never be enthusiastic deep down inside. Behind every yes would be a silent no. And I think the actual rapists convince themselves that this is true so that they can believe that rape is sex.

  17. I’m sorry that happened to you, Nanasha.

  18. Since everyone here claims 99.999999% of men are just handy dandy and great to have around the odds of meeting anyone other than a stand up joe is infintesimal. Of course if ya go with slavering beast theory every man you meet is liable to jump your bones. Could be your dad, brother, whatever. Speaking of slavering beast theory, ya ever give that little lecture to dear old dad, Holly? Anyways, ya might meet some skeevy perv in an elevator whose got the audacity to talk to you, what a creep, but other than that, you’ll be safe as can be.

    Good job minimizing the fact that some people’s fathers, brothers, and other family members/people the trust are the ones who rape them. I mean, isn’t it actually MORE likely that you’ll be raped by someone you know? Great job talking about it as if it never fucking happens.

    In other words, if there are 20 women applicants for a class only 20 men are permitted to enroll in that class. If not enough women want to play at computer programming, the men can’t play either. Just like it did in sports for little boys. Aren’t ya proud? I guess Ozy’ll get her wish after all. The only things boys will be allowed to do is whatever girls want to do. They can all play dress up games.

    No you guys, this theory totally holds up. That’s why there were 3 women and 9 men in my film classes… OH WAIT NO THAT DOESN’T ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE AT ALL DOES IT?

  19. Who has sex with someone, then regretts it and THEN suddenly feels the desire to tell the police about it so afterwards they will have to repeat the story over and over again in a courtroom full of people?

    THis has always bothered me too. Who honestly thinks, “Oh shit, I had sex with HIM last night? Alright, off to relive the whole thing in front of a court room and jury of my peers, letting everyone know I had sex with this guy who wasn’t actually hot once I took off my beer goggles, instead of just pretending like it never happened.”

  20. @Cliff- Exactly- I think that there are few ways to truly “legally” prove many rapes simply because they often boil down to one person saying one thing and the other person saying the opposite. But I just wish there was more validation that yes, rape occurs, and it often occurs in a way that *cannot be proven in a court of law* and just because it cannot be proven doesn’t mean that it did not exist.

    I think that one of the worst things about rape apologists is that they try and make it out to be a “you must just hate sex” thing (no- I am a deeply sexual person with a high sex drive and consensual sex is amazing) and/or simply deny that rape can happen AT ALL unless it’s magically proven 100% without a shadow of a doubt.

    They don’t just want to keep rapists from being punished for raping, but they also want to INVALIDATE and DISAPPEAR the experience of people who have been raped. And that is almost more upsetting to me- to be told that what happened to me didn’t ACTUALLY happen, I’m just an evil sex-hating bitch and it’s all my fault.

    @clairedammit- I didn’t want to put too many details because I know that they can be triggering to other people as well, but yeah, I eventually got to a point where I could sort of process through the actual chain of events and came to the conclusion that there was really no way to actually legally make the charges stick (he also lives in a different city and was only visiting when the incident occurred- plus I basically just cut off all contact with him after the incident- he called and left a couple messages on my phone acting all confused and hurt that I wasn’t returning his calls).

    And I totally get the whole “women must hate sex” thing that these people seem to believe. I mean, who else but someone who thinks that women hate sex would honestly say that women only “endure” sexual requests by men in order to get sparkly jewelry and get pampered by hanging around home eating bon bons and watching soap operas all day (because everyone knows that hoarding expensive stuff and eating treats in a lair is what women aspire to do because, ya know, women are actually DRAGONS).

    It also clues me into how out-of-touch they are about other people in sexual relationships. There’s obviously not a lot of communication going on here, and if there is any attempt, it’s being perceived as “a trick” at best. And of course, there’s the problem that a lot of people who respect themselves and like honest communication will not be willing to have sex with that sort of person, so these misogynist assholes inevitably find themselves getting into sexual relationships with people who have severe problems and baggage from past relationships, which then tend to segue right into abusive relationships (which they believe are “normal”).

    It really saddens me how there might be actual rapists out there who think you can “rape someone by accident.” As though lying there as though dead, saying no in a scared way, or using very clear negative body language are NOT indicators that something is wrong LONG before the rape happens.

    Something tells me that most rapists are simply so self-absorbed and self-centered, that they will tell themselves whatever it takes to sleep at night to justify why they did what they did to someone who obviously did not consent.

  21. I know, right? I’m pretty sure that if I got drunk and consented to sex that I regretted it later, I’d tell my girlfriends that he was too drunk, and I had changed my mind in the meantime. Easy!

  22. But they sure will stick up for a black man in this case! So long as nobody acknowledges his race could have had anything to do with it!

    girlwriteswhat (of course) has a little copy-paste that she’s fond of dumping in places:

    One interesting fact was that when you control for being raised in a single-mother household, the race disparity in incarcerated populations vanishes. About 80% of those incarcerated and youths in state-run institutions were raised without fathers.
    Matriarchy might not create ghettos (I’m pretty sure it does), but it sure is failing children.”

    I’ve seen her post it in youtube comment sections and she even replied to me on reddit once with the exact same wording. I did what I considered to be the right thing at the time and ignored it.

  23. Oh, my comment above was for Jessay.

  24. Hugs to both Cliff and Nanasha, if you want them.

    Thing is, the scenarios you’re describing are, as much as I hate using this word in this context, the norm for rape. Strangers jumping out of bushes with knives are rare, what you’re describing much less so.

  25. Thing is, the scenarios you’re describing are, as much as I hate using this word in this context, the norm for rape. Strangers jumping out of bushes with knives are rare, what you’re describing much less so

    And a lot of women (myself, for example) have been sexually assaulted by people we knew. Even if it didn’t go as far as rape, it was still an assault and still scary as fuck. But they get to tell themselves that they were “just having fun” and when I burst into tears in the first case, or shoved them away and ran for my life in the second, it was “just a misunderstanding.” And of course, I didn’t tell anyone, either. What was there to tell? (sarcasm)

    I actually have never told anyone until tonight. So thanks for your stories, Nanasha and Cliff.

  26. Nanasha, Cliff, and clairedammit, hugs if you want them. I am so sorry.

  27. As a latin@, GWW can fucking die in a fire right now.

  28. Seriously, any given white dude is more likely to do drugs than a black or hispanic one. And they are only barely ahead of the number of black dudes in prison, despite being a substantially higher number of the population. Fuck off and die, MRAs. Race matters.

  29. @clairedammit- It means a lot to know that you feel safe enough to share, but it’s absolutely heartbreaking that this seems to be so “normal.” I could practically give you dates and play-by-plays that sound exactly the same as the ones you describe but that couldn’t be considered “full on rape” and were largely dismissed by said assaulters as “all in fun” or “just a joke.”

    Ugh. =_=

  30. @ Cliff, Nanasha, and clairedammit

    This is part of the reason I’ve decided to remain a virgin. I have aspergers and therefore have trouble judging nonverbal cues, I wouldn’t be able to ever be absolutely sure that I wasn’t raping someone unless I overtly asked if it were ok first, and sadly in the high school that I went to, that and other sex-positive attitudes were the kind of thing that got you labelled as creepy, shy, socially awkward, or some other unattractive label. I however have a policy to never even come close to raping anyone, I honestly view rape as one of the most horrible things someone can do to anyone else, to the point where if not raping people means I never have sex, I’m fine with that. I wish I could sympathize, but that’s kind of hard to do without empathy, so the most I can offer are my sincere condolences for what must have been horrid and traumatic experiences, and my apologies if the language I’ve chosen to make this statement has been less sincere than I wish for it to be.

  31. From the BBC on the UK:
    “The number of rapes reported is rising – but only 5.6% of 11,766 reports in 2002 led to a rapist being convicted.”


    So 5.6 % versus 94.4 %… what kind of weird skewered worldview do these men have?! Rape is still a crime without punishment in many Western countries.

    On a completely different note: I send you an email David about a suggestion for a new post a few days ago. Is it better to ask in the comments or should I just wait?

  32. General rape-related TW

    I went through several instances of sexual assault and rape between the ages of 8 and 15 and for each occurrence I have received piles of victim blaming. Apparently real rape at 8 means I would have immediately told my parents. If my uncle really was molesting me the rest of the family would have stopped him when they saw it instead of ignoring it or policing my clothing. I definitely was asking for it when I met a man in the army with a friend of mine (who knew him) and he raped me in his car before he let me go home.

    I think it was the victim blaming that damaged me the most, and made me more vulnerable to being further victimized. It was an ugly cycle and the damage it did psychologically still affects me. It probably effected my sex drive and I know it had an impact on my capacity to enjoy consensual PIV sex.

    I also don’t think that any of the men who raped me thought from their perspective that it was “real rape” either. Our culture privileges their perspective as being at least equal to mine, though It is hardly balanced to equate someone’s desire to have bodily autonomy and someone else’s desire to use the body of another person. Mutual consent is sex, without it from all participants it is rape. The rapists perspective that they really wanted sex, deserved sex, needed sex, were promised sex, are entitled to sex (for whatever reason) is entirely irrelevant.

  33. @ Nanasha, clairedammit, Cliff

    If any of you didn’t read this when it came out you may want to do so now.


  34. Jesus, ronalon42. I’m so sorry. I know what you mean, though. It’s totally fucked me up for life that someone I thought was my friend would do that to me, even though I was crying and saying no. It’s even worse, though, that people who were in a position to help me — who made their living working with victims — went out of their way to tell me they thought I was lying, or that I “deserved” it. The victim blaming is the most painful part. And it’s not like it ever stops.

    I’m not convinced that my rapists thought from their perspectives that it wasn’t “real rape,” though. I think that if anyone had asked them, they wouldn’t have used the word “rape,” because they didn’t want to get in trouble. But honestly, I’m pretty sure that a big part of what they were after was Lack of Consent. They didn’t want to have sex — they wanted to rape. I think that about most rapists, actually. They fucking know what they’re doing. Rape is absolutely intentional, which is why it’s such a pernicious lie that the MRM is telling: alllllllll these falsely accused men just wanted to have sex and whoops! Someone cried rape! How did that happen? “Hm, I guess women who don’t want to be accidentally raped shouldn’t drink alcohol” sounds a lot better than “I targeted the most inebriated woman at the bar because I didn’t want anyone who could say no” or “I invited my friend to play a friendly drinking game because I absolutely intended to get her to the point where my cousin and I could rape her without her doing anything about it” (which is — sorry — painfully specific, because that’s what my rapists did). Anyway, fuck. This thread is totally triggering. But so is everything.

    Nanasha, Cliff, and clairedammit … I’m also very sorry about what happened to you.

  35. @Cassandra- Thanks, I needed that.

    I find it interesting that the number one thing that people tell you when they talk about rape is that it must be a “misunderstanding” if it’s someone you know, despite the fact that PEOPLE YOU KNOW are the most likely people to rape you. If you don’t know the person, or don’t know them very well, chances are people are more likely to believe you, even though random jump-out-of-the-bushes rapists are relatively rare (although just as bad in severity).

    I also think that most of the “Not Rape” conditioning starts when you’re a child- most kids are taught to acquiesce to older people- to defer to unwanted hugs and kisses from aunts and uncles, and to be ok with giving up their bodily integrity when it comes to people who act as though they are in Authority.

    For me, I am raising my child to be secure in her own body and I *never* force kisses or hugs or any kind of affection on her if she does not want it. I don’t force her to hug or kiss other people either. This is probably tied to how we socialize girls in general as well, but I think it is important that children learn very early on how to clearly communicate their feelings and desires- and why this is important in an age-appropriate way, because simply “knowing” what a rapist will do to you doesn’t fix the problem (and I should know- my mom tried the “tell Nanasha and younger sister graphic rape stories at 8 and 10 years of age” tactic, and it just freaked me out and made me paranoid- it also fucked me up a lot about feeling like I “deserved” to be raped or that I would never get to have sex unless I got raped because my mom coupled these rants with “you’re fat and ugly and clumsy” rants at separate times and I felt as though the two things were related somehow.

    This website has a lot of helpful stuff about teaching kids (and teens and adults) how to deal with abusive situations and set boundaries: http://kidpower.org/abuse-prevention/

    And yes, plenty of men would benefit from these things too. How many men were molested or raped as little boys or vulnerable teens? How many suffer the shame of having been hurt by someone and told it was their fault? How many men grow up without learning how to set their own boundaries, communicate clearly, and read other people’s body language?

    These skills are EVERYONE skills and they should be FUCKING MANDATORY.

    Instead, we get abstinence-only education and whispers of Not-Rape behind the portable buildings in the school yard.

    What the hell, Modern Society, what the hell?!

  36. @NWO

    So being called an “overweight white dude who hates his ex-wife and gets off on punching his perceived grievances into a keyboard” has hurt your fee fees? And this equals misandry?

    Dude, you are so fucking out of touch with reality, it’s scary.

    “Ohhhh yeah, this is pure gold amongst the gang. Why is it unsubstantiated? Because the word unsubstantiated fell out of you mouth, that’s why.”

    It’s up to you to substantiate them. It’s not our job to unsubstatntiate, but we are still happy to do that for you sometimes. And perfoming statistical gymnastics until some numbers look like they’re in your favor doesn’t count.

    “Women are perfect angels. Men are perfect devils.”

    Nobody is saying that, asshole. When you read the radfem paragraph and see “Women are perfect angels. Men are perfect devils” you are fucking delusional. I could show you a picture of a dog and you would say “Women are perfect angels. Men are perfect devils.”
    Stop saying the same shit over and over again.

  37. Additionally, this is a bit mainstream-y but it really has a lot of good information about treating kids with respect and helping them to set boundaries and learn that their boundaries SHOULD ALWAYS be respected, and that if someone does not respect them, to get the hell away, even if it’s Aunt Ethyl trying to kiss them against their will:


    PS: This does not absolve the people who force stuff on other people of responsibility- that shit is not ok from a kiss to sexual assault if it’s unwanted. Our society needs to replace rape culture and hierarchical scripted sex with consent culture and communicative individualized sex.

  38. I want to add in here that most rapists know that their partner was not consenting. Studies about interpretation of cues and about how rapists perceived the situation typically reflect that the rapist knew that their partner was not fully consenting or fully capable of consenting. The “misunderstanding” thing doesn’t actually happen all that much in any real situation, what happens in general is that a rapist knows their partner doesn’t want to have sex and doesn’t give a fuck. “Misunderstanding” is mostly used when people are pretending that X, Y, Z forms of rape aren’t really real rape, so therefore the perp didn’t understand they were raping.

  39. Bee you are right, it is pretty certain that they purposefully target people who cannot resist, who can’t consent and who are powerless to do anything about it. It is why the rape culture works so well in their favor, as it widens the net of acceptable targets and normalizes harmful behaviors. I had meant that the word rapist itself (like most negative labels) is probably not something they would think of themselves. There is a comeback I’ve heard something like “wouldn’t I know if I was a rapist? And I say that I am not! Case closed!” It almost reminds me of debates about racism, where the bar to be given the label is almost cartoonishly villainous and describes only a tiny portion of people.

    I have two daughters and it is a big concern, but at the very least I hope they are learning from me that they have a right to dictate what does or does not happen to their body, from hugs and kisses from relatives to getting ears pierced and so on. And if anyone violates that, they can trust that I will take it seriously, no matter how “small” it is.

    And internet hugs to all who want them. I am sorry for triggering anyone as well.

  40. I just stumbled across this on tumblr… wow

  41. Oh he might look like a good chap, but ya never know, he could be a slavering beast.

    It’s hilarious to assume the converse. “All rapists don’t look like good chaps.” What in the heck do they look like?

    I can read the same damn thing on radfem. Every damned feminist site uses the same phrases and wording.

    Ooh, did they quote me? Because I made that phrase up! I’m pretty excited actually if it’s spreading.

    Usually radfems don’t like me that well, on account of how I’m too sex-positive (and to be fair to them, also because I’ve said some problematic things about them on my blog in the past), so I wouldn’t expect to get quoted on RadHub, but these things do circulate around.

  42. Aworldanonymous –

    This is part of the reason I’ve decided to remain a virgin. I have aspergers and therefore have trouble judging nonverbal cues, I wouldn’t be able to ever be absolutely sure that I wasn’t raping someone unless I overtly asked if it were ok first,

    That’s true for neurotypical people too. No one’s that sensitive to cues that they never have to ask. But out in the adult world there are a lot of people who are okay with being asked (or may even ask you!). That’s not a reason on its own to never have sex. It’s just a reason to talk things out before sex.

    And like DSC said, most rapists know damn well what they’re doing. It’s actually not that easy to do by accident–it doesn’t come from misjudging what your partner is feeling, it comes from not even caring.

  43. @Cliff

    It’s hilarious to assume the converse. “All rapists don’t look like good chaps.” What in the heck do they look like?

    Dark and/or poor, possibly atheist as well. Of course a PC misandrist like you wouldn’t be smart enough to grok that

  44. TW, but this man went undercover and befriended his girlfriend’s rapist in order to retrieve evidence of her assault (the bastard had videotaped it). Two years after the rape, her attacker is finally charged. She was too traumatized to report it at the time, and didn’t tell anyone that it even happened for over a year.


  45. Cliff: Owly, you either did not read or did not understand the Slavering Beast article.

    Owly: Oh, I read it alright. YOU THINK MEN ARE SLAVERING BEASTS!!!1

    Cliff: Do you have any shame whatsoever?

    Owly: Nope! Why do you ask?

  46. Oh he might look like a good chap, but ya never know, he could be a slavering beast.

    Oh NWO, so out of touch with reality. My rapist was a trust fund hipster kid I went to college with. And he didn’t say “hey, I’m in town, want to go get drinks and catch up and then I’ll rape you later?

    You can’t tell if someone’s going to be a rapist until they start raping.

  47. ShadetheDruid

    I find it funny that Owly is complaining about the “slavering beast” thing and accusing people of thinking that about all men, considering he and the other MRAs think that.

    I mean, isn’t that the whole point of the “women shouldn’t dress or act slutty because it tempts men” thing?

  48. Wow, yes, because false rape accusations are anywhere near as common as unreported rape. This is pretty sick. If you are so against “false” rape accusations, you think you’d do everything you could to make rape not happen, which means putting the onus on men not to rape. But no, these guys don’t want that. They want free reign to do with women what they want to. Straight up, they are monsters and should be called monsters whenever possible. Frankly if I knew where these assholes lived I’d put up fliers in their neighborhood so women knew to stay very far away from them.

  49. what a cunt

  50. Tulgey Logger

    Yeah, Shade, Owly’s conception of male sexuality is that it is essentially rapacious. I have never come across a greater misandrist than Owly.

  51. Hugs for every survivor! And you’re all very brave for talking about it.

    I’m getting pretty tired of the Udder Fondler General assuming that my sexuality is not under my control, and that the only thing stopping me from assaulting anyone (but little girls especially) is the clothes that they wear.

    If it’s a choice between “you can’t tell which man is going to rape you, but most of them won’t” and “men will rape anything with a vagina” I’m going with better safe than sorry rather than lock us all up now.

  52. @Sandra:

    what a cunt

    Who’s that, then? Did Tom Martin sneak back in, and we started adding “(you c***s)” to everything?

  53. On the one hand, I want NWOslave to read Twisty Faster’s Blog and then read the Pervocracy and then come back here and tell us all feminists are the same.

    On the other hand, I’m 99.9%positive that if he did, then he’d come back here with the conclusion that we’re all like Twisty Faster (except for the part where we’re not).

    (posting as either GingerSnaps or whataboutthemoonz, I haven’t figured out how WordPress works yet…..)

  54. @blitzgal- I’m happy that the boyfriend helped his girlfriend get justice (and evidence), but it also plays into the idea that there are only very specific rapes that should ever truly be considered “rape” (ie: it has to be horribly traumatic to the point of the victim being unable to talk about it AT ALL, involve some level of overt physical abuse, etc) because only THOSE rapes are “extreme” enough and “clearly wrong” enough to be successfully prosecuted.

    And who wants to guess that the defense is going to consist of “oh, but she got so DRUNK! What an alcoholic! ALSO she must be some sort of slut, having ‘sex’ with two men at once!”?

    And who wants to guess that Rape Culture and the attitudes behind it will lead to people actually BELIEVING it, because the alternative is that this “normal” looking guy (I didn’t see any pictures, but I’m assuming he doesn’t look like a demented Mr. Hyde running around with his dick out or they would have immediately locked him away) is actually a monster who planned and executed the sexual assault and torture of a minor, and I think that’s something that scares the shit out of most “average” people- the fact that there are monsters among us and yet most of them don’t look like monsters- they look like friends, families, lovers, even ourselves. The thought that your most intimate partner could be a monster also makes people wonder if there is a monster inside themselves, waiting to come out- is it inherent, or is it truly planned? We all have dark thoughts at times, some of them sexual, and while I do think that most people would NEVER rape someone, there *are* Id-y parts of your brain that leave people with the fear that one day something’s going to happen and they’re just going to “snap” and do something terrible.

    Which is why I think that it bears repeating that getting out of rape culture is more complex than “don’t rape people” but it’s a start. It would require a fundamental change in how we socialize people to interact and place consent and communication firmly into even our NON-sexual interactions with one another. What is problematic is that rape is only one point in the cascading failure of consent. Rape often starts out with unwanted touches, unwanted advances, invasion of personal space, aggressive pushing of alcohol or drugs, and other “not-rape” stuff.

    If the standard of romance and sex wasn’t the “mysterious whirlwind” that “just happens” without talking about it, the ignoring of consent and subsequent cascade of sexual assault factors would be much more apparent, not only to the victim but to the people surrounding them. Sure, most of us learn (sadly from personal experience) when to pick up on the difference between a clueless suitor and a rapist suitor, but it shouldn’t have to be that way- we shouldn’t have to learn survival skills by being targeted, humiliated and placed in danger by predators.

    Which is why “creepy” is pretty much the best weapon in our arsenal. And that is why all these rapey rapey MRAs fucking HATE that word. Because it’s the only way for us to describe cascading rape escalation behaviors in a socially acceptable way.

  55. **hugs to everybody**
    Some of the comments make me sad and angry. But a lot of these comments are very necessary. I did not report my rape because I was afraid no one would support me and blame me as I did myself.

    Tips to end REAL false accusations of rape:

    1:Hold police and prosecutors accountable for mishandling of cases and get them to use proper investigator methods.

    In many of these types of cases there is an actual rape and the victim does not know their attacker(not the majority of rapes by the way).

    The police are focused on a particular suspect and convince an already traumatized victim this is the person that did it.

    2: There are fewer cases where a woman does actually lie about being raped for fear of being treated badly for her sexual activity. To help end this:

    STOP SLUT SHAMING! No slut shaming, no incentive for a woman to lie about her sexual activity.

    Some problematic things with their list are :

    #1:If the woman drank enough to impair judgement that much—That’s rape asshole.

    #6:Being drunk is not consent for sex. If she would not consent to it sober—That’s rape asshole.

    #8:If she was so drunk she would not even remember what you look like the next day—That’s rape asshole. and a little of my answer to #6 on this one too.

  56. I had a friend who was raped by a guy she was dating, and had previously had consensual sex with. She never reported it, because the guy pretended like he thought she was only “playfully” resisting him… She just broke up with him and moved on with her life. That’s a pretty typical rape story as well.

    I had another friend whom I actually think made a false sexual assault claim. I had gradually begun to understand that she was a compulsive liar who made up all kinds of stuff, when she started telling all our friends that a certain guy had pushed her up against a wall and tried to tear her shirt off at a party. This guy was always sleeping around, but I had never seen him overstep somebody’s boundaries like that. One night I’d gone home with him myself, totally intending to have sex with him, only to black out at his couch because I’d been drinking way too much that night. And I woke up fine and unmolested the next day. Considering a) the girl was a compulsive liar and b) if somebody doesn’t take advantage of a girl who’s passed out, it seems a bit unlikely that he’d violently assault somebody, I think she just made that up. However, she never went to the police with her story.
    I didn’t tell her I didn’t believe her about the sexual assault, but I did try to call her out on some other lies where I knew with absolute certainty she’d made things up. But she just went on with her lies, inventing more and more incredible stories, and eventually I just couldn’t be friends with her any longer. Another friends of ours, however, broke with her over the sexual assault thing and openly supported the guy.

    In any case, one must be seriously messed up to lie about something like that. It’s not like one has anything to GAIN from it. It’s not like telling people you were sexually assaulted or raped will increase your social status or gain you popularity.

  57. ronalon42 — I’m glad you are sharing your story here, and I didn’t necessarily mean that I found what you said triggering. Much more so, I’m triggered by the assholes who have stopped by this thread to say that rape isn’t a big deal hur hur, and only some rapes count as rape. I’m sorry that it sounded like I was saying you were triggering me!

  58. “The Competitive Enterprise Institute are the same ones who tried to rehabilitate the image of CO2: “Carbon Dioxide–they call it pollution, we call it life.” So, yeah, they’re a right-wing think tank.”

    Carbon dioxide: it’s what plants crave!

  59. “The Competitive Enterprise Institute are the same ones who tried to rehabilitate the image of CO2: “Carbon Dioxide–they call it pollution, we call it life.” So, yeah, they’re a right-wing think tank.”

    Carbon dioxide: it’s what plants crave!


    Thanks for the hugs everybody.

  60. But what about teh treez?

  61. Snowy: I don’t understand their whole “regret” wording.

    It’s because the people who say it see sex as something which soils women. So, the reasoning (such as it is) goes that by having sex she regrets the woman is now “unclean”.

    But if she can foist it off on the world as, “rape” then she is absolved of having chosen to besmirch herself, and so is clean; and wholesome, again.

    clairedammit: I have a theory that some men (the ones who probably aren’t rapists but stick up for them) are afraid they’re going to rape somebody accidentally.

    Back when I was a callow youth, and almost completely inexperienced in the ways of women (I knew they liked sex, but had not much in the way of clues on how to arrange for a mutual interest to be explored, most of my encounters were because she [metaphorically] clubbed me upside the head and dragged me back to her cave), I was afraid of just that.

    The idea that someone might decide, ex post facto that I’d raped them made me a bit more reluctant to try to express my interest. As I got more experience I figured out that I could make my interest plain, and even make sure that any negative response I got was serious (this was in an age where “enthusiastic consent” wasn’t taught the way it is now).

    I also had a lot of female friends, who made it plain they liked sex, and that when women were interested, it wasn’t hard to get them to say yes. So I wasn’t prone to the sorts of sly games to “convince” someone to “say yes”.

    But at the age of 18-21 I was a bit afraid of committing “rape by misadventure.”

  62. Cliff:

    …Then again, your understanding of Title IX is something along the lines of “Spermjack a false accusation alimony friendzone,” so I don’t really expect you to start understanding at this point.

    Yeah, he has kind of a shaky grasp of how laws work. Given his I’m-rubber-you’re-glue rhetorical style, I wonder if he was arrested/sued at some point.


    Oh he might look like a good chap, but ya never know, he could be a slavering beast.

    I’d sort of like to know how Cliff’s “there are no slavering beasts” post went through the Slavey-brain and came out as this. Did he only read the parts that were quoted/paraphrased to be refuted? Did he read each paragraph in isolation?


    out in the adult world there are a lot of people who are okay with being asked (or may even ask you!). That’s not a reason on its own to never have sex. It’s just a reason to talk things out before sex.

    Seconding this, though with the addendum that if you don’t feel you’re missing out by not having sex (I don’t think the word “virgin” is useful) go ahead and don’t, there’s nothing wrong with making that decision and you don’t have to justify it to nice people.

  63. Tulgey Logger

    I’m a fan of the theory that Owly wears enhanced reality goggles that make everything he reads into misandry. So when he read Cliff’s post, all he saw was “Men… are slavering beasts.” This is the only rational explanation of which I can conceive.

    (The goggles also make him think he’s writing really thoughtful social justice commentaries in Dvorak rather than Qwerty.)

  64. But at the age of 18-21 I was a bit afraid of committing “rape by misadventure.”

    I’ve said this before, but I get the impression that most of the guys who express paranoia about false rape accusations are either a) young men with little sexual experience, who imagine it’s possible to accidentally commit rape because women are just that mysterious, or b) rapists.

  65. I can easily believe a lot of male nerds are in group A. I was.

  66. I shouldn’t do NWO’s research for him, but research is fun:

    The law commonly referred to as Title IX is codified as 20 U.S.C. §§1681-1688. Those sections can be read here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

    Now, the reason the burden of proof is on NWO is because no law will or even can have a complete list of what it doesn’t require (or prohibit). Granted, “law thus-and-such requires X” can be disproven by simple exhaustion, but that wouldn’t satisfy someone who believes I wouldn’t say if I did find it. I would point out that it would be pretty stupid of me to provide a bunch of links and then assert that something is not on any of the linked pages if it actually was.

    That said, I present 20 U.S.C. §1681 subsection (b):

    Nothing contained in subsection (a) of this section shall be interpreted to require any educational institution to grant preferential or disparate treatment to the members of one sex on account of an imbalance which may exist with respect to the total number or percentage of persons of that sex participating in or receiving the benefits of any federally supported program or activity, in comparison with the total number or percentage of persons of that sex in any community, State, section, or other area

    If anyone wants to check the actual law against the other nonsense NWO has ascribed to Title IX, feel free, I just didn’t feel like looking it up. Of course, someone who thinks a definition of rape that includes the words “without consent” doesn’t take consent into account is not going to be satisfied with any refutation that doesn’t quote a passage that mentions him by name. If that.

  67. It’s pretty stupid to provide a bunch of links under any circumstances, really, since it (understandably) gets the comment put into moderation.😛

  68. What the MRA folks seem to have trouble understanding is the concept of legal consent. By definition, drunk or drugged people are incapable of giving legal consent. Likewise, people below the legal age of consent are incapable of furnishing legal consent. It doesn’t matter if they said yes or how they acted.

  69. Shaennon: I wasn’t terrified of it, but it was a concern. I happen to be in the cusp-group. The much-mocked “Antioch Rules” were published when I was in college. Date Rape became a widespread concept while I was in college. The “rules” I’d been absorbing (whether I agreed with them, or not) said guys “had to push”.

    All of a sudden pushing could equal rape.

    I don’t think (given the culture I was in/am in now) that I’d be worried about it, were I to be that age now. My brother (who is 23 years my junior) seems to not be worried about it at all. From the women I know he’s spent time with, he’s doesn’t seem to be at risk of committing rape.

    The world was changing while I was young, for the better, but to be living in that sort of social flux is a bit unsettling. Having sisters who are younger than my brother (the youngest is 10 years younger than my brother) I am really glad for the changes, but I’d rather it was more changed than it is.

  70. Of course, I knew NWO had the correct interpretation of Title IX when I saw all the abandoned football fields at all the public schools in this country. Girls would rather play dress-up than put on pads and risk their health chasing a pigskin, so now boys can’t play football.

    All those memories I have of freezing my tits off while watching my school’s football team get trounced are obviously wrongthink and never happened.

    And because they’re wrongthink and never happened, they must have been put there by the Greys or the Raelians or the Rosicrucians or the Rothsefellers.

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