Men’s Rights Redditor on a Men’s Rights critic: “He is getting older and homosexual and … people like these tend to age like milk instead of wine.”

In yet another discussion of Arthur Goldwag’s latest post on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Hatewatch blog (looking at MRAs bad-mouthing the men who lost their lives protecting their girlfriends in the Aurora shootings), longtime Men’s Rights Redditor Liverotto offers this intriguing take on what he sees as Goldwag’s motivations for criticizing the Men’s Rights movement:

Yeah, a dude actually wrote that, and a couple of people actually upvoted it.

I’m trying to understand the logic: Goldwag is growing older and more homosexual (do men usually become gay as they age?). But gay men age badly, which makes them mad at their “suitors.” So therefore Goldwag has come to hate the (mostly straight) men of the Men’s Rights movement?

Another highlight of the discussion: The r/mensrights regular who thinks I’m Paul Elam. No, really.

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon,, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on August 4, 2012, in antifeminism, crackpottery, homophobia, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, reddit, whaaaaa?. Bookmark the permalink. 360 Comments.

  1. Yeah, ozy, Lucy throws the most conflicted dinner parties ever. 😉

  2. @aworldanoymous

    I know that; I’m just creeped out by how good it is.

  3. but given the sordid history of “autogynephilia” we might want to choose a new word for it.

    Yeah, I was initially confused as to how the word could apply in that context, then started seeing some of the other ways it’s used, and just cut to the chase.

    They were actually semi-connected; “Autogynophilia isn’t a thing the way you seem to mean it, and if you think ‘all dudes want to play chun li’, you should probably deal with more dudes; see, for instance, League Of Legends invective at people playing female champions”, is the less collapsed version.

  4. aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh

    another fucking clinton ad

  5. I’m getting pretty much wall-to-wall Clinton ads. Get thee behind me, Clinton!

  6. You won’t need to wait for David, I’ll be leaving now.

    I’m just going to go ahead and disqualify all flounces that unflounce before I score them.

  7. Oh, and btw, I actually think Snow is Azor Ahai. Maybe Tyrion. Daenerys is already one head of the dragon for obvious reasons, she doesn’t need another.

  8. @Sharculese:

    Blogs generally don’t get to determine the contents of the ads. Imagine my frustration at seeing so many “Was he REALLY the son of God”-type ads on freethoughtblogs.

  9. Somehow the greatest revelation in all this is..

    Silly mistyping fingers. – kirbywarp

    Kirby has fingers?!

  10. Oh, I get it. You heard the invective. You didn’t do it.

  11. Oh! I was confused about why you didn’t like men playing female LoL champions, but assumed that there was some reasonable explanation. It turns out the reasonable explanation is “Ozy can’t read.” >.>

  12. Kirby: Those ads always make me happy! Horrible religious people* paying for *literally* the most useless ads of all time.

    *To be distinguished from nice religious people, most of whom are not inclined to have Google ads advertising their religion.

  13. is there like a way i can email google about this shit

    i am sick of seeing the smiler’s grandpa plastered over fucking everything

  14. I’m getting the Clinton ads too, so it may just currently be showing those to everyone in the US. (The Aussies aren’t seeing them, right?)

    Makes a nice change from all the other sites with ads that keep offering me coupons to buy shampoo, when I just bought a ton and don’t need any more for a while.

  15. And Azor is indeed Mr. Al. (And was using a IP-changing-thingy until you all figured out who it was.) I don’t know how you figured him out so quickly.

  16. I don’t see any Clinton ads. What’s Bill Clinton even got to do with anything being sold today anyway?

  17. @Ozy:

    It’s not that it’s a religious ad, it’s that its a religious ad rehashing the same tired, disproved arguments as if it were some revelation placed on a skeptic site where those exact arguments have been addressed over and over. X_X


    I doubt you can contact google. These things are determined by algorithm, and look at how much trouble Santorum has had in removing his google result.😛

  18. @David

    Taylor Lautner. Also a stopped clock being right once a day.

  19. I always thought the “Was he really the Son of God?” ads were mostly Mormons, not that I’ve ever actually clicked on one and found out.

  20. The obvious reason why someone wouldn’t want men playing female characters is that it’s men fetishizing women’s bodies and trying to control them by being them.

  21. @david

    he seriously brought up old women and taylor lautner in his first post.

  22. David, he never changes, that’s how.

  23. @David:

    My guess? Al has tells that literally nobody else has. Hence whenever those topics come up at all, it’s probably him.

  24. welp im gonna make a bunch of drunken phone calls asking someone if i can speak to google anyway because why not

  25. “Hello, is the Google in?”

    -how I imagine Drunk Sharculese

  26. LOL! They may be listening to you, Kirby. Current ad says WILL THE RIGHT GOOGLE ADS FIND YOU?

  27. <blockquote"How do you know that they were male-identifying?"
    Because I know the people in my monkeysphere, for one, and for the other, the typical response to being called gendered slurs against women is to affirm dudeliness. Were you going to ask something difficult?

    Any victim of your invective could say, “I identify as a woman,”

    That construction is amazingly unlikely, and your point of “All dudes want to play women” is not helped if the female characters are being played by women.

    Also, would Ozy deserve invective if zie played a female character?

    …would anyone? The point isn’t that dudes playing women is horrible, you insufferable git. It’s that for a thing you claim is so common and normal amongst everyone, it is loathed amongst dudes in general.

    Also, if playing a female character isn’t an autogynephile thing, then why is it so ‘deserving’ of invective?

    Scare quotes mine
    Because people are misogynist and the dude in question has lowered himself to the status of woman.

    Also, for a female player to play a male character may not be autoandrophilic, because male characters are the default, but if it’s a BL/yaoi game, surely it is.

    AFAICT having sold yaoi, it’s watching two dudes go at it that is the main purpose, not being a dude oneself that is. You are projecting.

  28. i spent thursday afternoon cold calling members of congress and i was very well behaved

    i earned this

  29. @Scrapemind:

    No, it’s probably because of things like this (which I haven’t read, but good chance is its a flame war).

  30. Sharculese, I hope you record those calls because I bet they’ll be hilarious!

  31. @CassandraSays

    That’s probably because of all the Google-Ad related content on this page now we’ve started talking about them. I’m getting that too.

  32. Spoke to soon, Bill is back.

  33. i play as female characters alot fwiw

    my lotr online defender, let me show her to you

  34. Too, dammit. Buttpole’s inability to write is rubbing off on me. Is there a cleaning product that helps with that?

  35. FWIW, these are “wordads,” which are handled by wordpress.

  36. @CassandraSays

    Sounds like this “soon” guy is who Sharculese should look for then :p

  37. FWIW, these are “wordads,” which are handled by wordpress.

    that’s cool, i can swear at them too

  38. No, people being stupid and defending their ability to ogle nearly every fucking female champion is not the same as the special insults only players of female champions get when they fuck up in-game.

    I mean, the former sucks, but it’s not the same as the latter. You pretty much have to be on the forums to deal with the former. The latter is for *everyone* who plays and is using a female character.

  39. I still think Sharculese should drunk dial the Google, though.

  40. Seriously, it’s just Anivia and Kayle. It used to be “Anivia, Annie, and Kayle” but they added a sexualized teenager Annie skin. And they are angry because people dared to mention that hey, every female champ is sexualized.

  41. I dislike the “I identify as an X” phrasing. I don’t *identify* as nonbinary, I *am* nonbinary. “Identify as” has a weird “but I’m not really” connotation to it.

    Kirby: I like the Bad Algorithms ones. Yes, as an atheist, I definitely want to go to your online school to get a theology degree…

  42. @Ozy

    My university’s Clubs & Societies rules have all these bits requiring the involvement of a certain number of “female-identifying” students, and I always think the same thing. It felt a bit like “yeah, we’ll put up with those weirdo trans people, aren’t we tolerant” every time I saw that but I didn’t know how to express it.

    I don’t know quite how to complain about that, express my complaint without coming off as transphobic, or what to suggest instead. Perhaps a trans inclusitivity policy that sets out obvious stuff like “trans X are real X” and just require a certain number of women students or something? I hear you’ve had experience with stuff like this, so I’m interested to hear what you have to say.

  43. At least we can agree that Stannis isn’t him, but that Melisandre is deluded or even manipulating things around in a cynical way to make it seem like he is Azor Ahai reborn.

    Jon Snow might fit if R+L=JS but I doubt it’s him. I do think R+L=JS though. It’s just the rest of the prophecy has to be tortured beyond all recognition to fit (he wasn’t born amidst salt and smoke).

    Daenerys is the best candidate by far. All the signs point to her: born on Dragonstone for smoke and salt, woke up dragons from eggs that were turned to stone, bleeding star in the sky. She just needs Lightbringer now.

    My own far-fetched pet theory is Jaime Lannister, because I think that would be a laugh (it would annoy a whole lot of fans who hate the lions with all their heart). He’s on a clear redemption arc so that might be his ‘rebirth’ and Oathkeeper is Valyrian steel, i.e. *dragon*steel, which may fulfill the criteria for Lightbringer if the prophecy was misunderstood. He’d need to temper it in the blood of his wife… or maybe a twin sister lover might do the trick? With his golden hand around her throat so he can be the valonquar as well (GRR Martin did make a lot of the fact that he was born *after* his twin sister).

    Of course that’s just my contrarian personality wishing for a gigantic Fuck You to all speculating fans when the prophecies finally come to fruition. I’m sure it’s going to be Daenerys instead.

  44. I still think Sharculese should drunk dial the Google, though.

    hello, google? let me tell you what i think about your mother.

  45. …That fan speculation sounds *hella* complicated.

    The most complicated speculation I got up to was that Brienne and Jaime ought to get married and have badass babies and teach them to swordfight.

  46. I’ve got one of those uplifting ads made by food companies involving schools. This particular one features Hellmanns mayonnaise helping a school in Red Deer, Alberta get rid of their cafeteria deep fryer.

  47. jk, it’s not like im virginia thomas or some shit

  48. hello, google? let me tell you what i think about your mother.

    Do you feel lucky, bozo?

  49. Rutee, it would be most awesomely twisted if it were Jamie Lannister. I can hear the internet howling now.

  50. @ozy

    i have friends who will sit around and speculate like that and when i have to listen to it it makes me not want to be their friend anymore.

    which would be kind of a dick move because i was the one who turned them onto those books, even tho i havent cared about them in like ten years

  51. GAHHHH. PEOPLE STAHP WITH THE SPOILERS, I STILL NEED TO CATCH UP ON IT!!!111!!!11!!1!!11!!!111oneoneeleven111!!11122112@1112222@!@!!!@!

  52. >>>I don’t know how you figured him out so quickly.

    Azor Ahai is such an obscure part of ASOIAF that while I can see a lot of readers discussing that character, I have a hard time thinking any but the most obsessed GRR Martin fan would use it as a nickname. And then he started talking about the female gaze, which is a pet obsession of his that I’ve never seen any other MRA bring up (to them they only care about money/status).

  53. Mm, yes, I see. Quite possible, that.

    *blissfully-ignorant smile and nod*

  54. the books, not my friends. i still care about my friends.

  55. In fact the only reason why it might not be Daenerys is that it’s so obvious that a character *in the book* expresses his opinion that she is. I would not entertain that as an argument if it wasn’t for the fact that this is GRR Martin we’re talking about…

  56. Sharc: Unfortunately the only fandoms I’m big into at the moment are Avengers and MLP, and they don’t really lend themselves to fan speculation.

    “Do you think that Applejack will learn about the magic of friendship this season?”
    “Ooh, will Loki get defeated next movie?”

  57. Also Avatar: The Last Airbender, but since I’m about five years behind everyone else everyone tends to smile and nod at me when I speculate.

    (I think Zuko’s going to die! And Sokka will date one of those nice warrior ladies with the fans.)

  58. I think Loki will learn about the magic of friendship and Applejack will be defeated.

  59. Also a tell – Boston Baby has said that Daenerys is his favorite character, and that he wants to bang her, but the idea that she could have some super extra special thing about her (I have not read the books, I gather that being the reincarnation of this dude is supposed to be an awesome thing)? Well, now, that won’t do, and she’s too lucky (a privileged prefect) already. It doesn’t do for a woman to get above herself.

  60. rrrgh, I still need to catch up on GoT and Avatar: The Last Airbender.

  61. Oh wait, Applejack already was defeated that one time, and went on to learn about the magic of friendship.

  62. @ozy

    it’s cool, the only things i have to speculate about are dr who and mad men, one of which lends itself much more than speculation than the other.

    also, i found out recently my lil sister has watched avatar four times, which actually is not that surprising knowing what she likes in tv. her birthday is coming up and im thinking about getting her this:

  63. Scrapingthebottomofthebarrell:

    That’s why gay men create classical art of great beauty, when the lesbian equivalent is angry folk songs whose focus is less on the music than on the angry lyrics, which are perhaps about how beauty is a myth.

    SPITS MILK all over the place and has to spend so much time cleaning it up that I cannot even begin to respond to the absolutely fucking bizarre crap here!

    Luckily for me, the milk is not old but fresh and young!

  64. That’s crazy! Applejack is one of the holders of the elements of harmony? How could she turn out to be evil?!?

    Though, on the other hand, she is supposed to be the eternally honest one, and in that one episode with her competition she was decidedly dishonest (though she “learned a lesson” by the end)… Hmm… Can elements of harmony be transferred? I don’t know who else could take it though.

    I’m still wondering when the cutie-mark crusaders will finally get their cutie-marks. Hopefully never (I know that’s terrible) because then the group would split up and that’d be sad… But they basically showed what their cutie marks should be in the first couple episodes of the group’s existence!

  65. my speculation for season six of mad men: peggy and sally will continue to be way cooler than basically everyone else.

  66. Evil? I just said she was defeated.

  67. When the Crusaders get their cutie marks I will basically DAWWWWW FOREVER.

    …I may or may not do that at every episode of that show.

  68. @CassandraSays: Azor Ahai is a hero of the religion Melisandre follows. In the show they don’t really mention it much except where she calls Stannis the Lord of Light’s Chosen. She doesn’t go into what that entails but offhandedly mentions a part of the prophecy.

    I find unfortunately that they didn’t delve far enough into Melisandre’s motivations this season. I hope they expand on it for the third one, because a lot of people I’ve seen comment don’t understand her at all and have a hard time understanding why Stannis keeps her around.

  69. Face it, Dracula. Would a non-evil character be defeated in MLP: FIM?

  70. I love when you guys figure out the new handles of old trolls!

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