New frontiers in victimology: Men are “intimidated” into buying women drinks in bars

Women intimidating a man in a bar.

MRAs, forever exploring new frontiers in victimology!  The latest revelation: Apparently men are being intimidated into hitting on women in bars due to the mysterious, malevolent power of their femaleness.

Here’s Howsmydirktaste, putting this theory before the good folks in the Men’s Rights subreddit for some “peer review.”

[S]eduction aims to use a man’s desire against him by giving him the possibly false impression that he may have sexual relations with the seducer. By doing so he may make decisions that he might not otherwise make (buying a drink at a bar, paying for a purse, etc.)

So women are engaged in some vast conspiracy to extort drinks and purses from men they don’t want to have sex with?

I’m pretty sure that unless a woman is holding a sign that reads “I’ll have sex with you for a drink,” that you really shouldn’t assume that she’ll have sex with you for a drink.

Intimidation does the same; the prospect of physical, monetary or emotional pain subjects the subordinate into doing things they might not otherwise do. Both of these options result in the same consequence of the dominant one convincing the subordinate that it is in their best interest to do something that is not in their best interest.

So a woman sitting in a bar looking pretty is the equivalent of a mob enforcer.

 Now morally: the main claim against male intimidation is that men, on average bigger and stronger, are being unjust by asserting a natural superiority. By doing so they have an unfair disadvantage.

Well, the claim is that when men act in an intimidating way towards women, they’re intimidating. Merely being larger than a woman isn’t a crime.

But sexually, don’t women have that same power? Men are genetically predisposed to look for mating opportunities in all women, and when a woman presents that opportunity, even the most iron-willed man could fall prey.

Apparently, we men are all at the mercy of our penises, and our penises are at the mercy of ladies looking sexy in our general vicinity.

Women don’t face that same situation; their requisite near-monogamy (because they can only have one child at a time, they are more selective in their sexual selections) means that male seduction does not hold the same sway.

Actually, the problem is that many traditional methods of “male seduction” actually involve real intimidation. And today there are a vast array of PUA sites out there offering updated versions of the old intimidating ways, teaching “pickup” techniques that are basically guides to date rape.

I think everyone here can identify a situation in which they or others have given undue attention or favor to a woman who seems a possible sexual partner. Doesn’t that result in the same affect as intimidation?

I’m going to step out on a limb here and say “no.”

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon,, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on September 24, 2012, in evil women, evo psych fairy tales, misogyny, MRA, narcissism, oppressed men, playing the victim, reddit and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 270 Comments.

  1. That’s not a post by Roosh, sweetie.

    Sorry douchecanoe honeybunch, they all blur into one big rape-advocating mass to me. Hmm, I wonder why that is…

    She will love you for making her a follower, and resent you for allowing her to lead.
    Ordering a girl to change positions — note, I said *ordering*, not politely asking

    Sure sounds consensual to me!

    Truthy, dear, ‘consensual dominance’ means ‘both/all partners have mutually and openly discussed and agreed on paramaters of dominance in specific and exclusive scenarios with safewords, and an understanding of what will happen’ not ‘BUTBUTBUT SOME RAPIST PUA TOTALLY SAID SHE’D BE INTO ME FORCING HER TO DO SHIT!!!’.

  2. I mean, if your definition of consent is ‘an implicit assumption that chicks totally want this’, no fucking wonder you’re a movement of rapists.

  3. You really don’t understand what consensual dominance means, do you?

    Actually I do you sack of shit. And neither terms like “barebacking persistence” nor the tacit approval/support of stories that involve forcefully removing the clothes of and penetrating an unwilling partner have any legitimate place next to the word “consensual.”

    Look, fuckwit, we’re all well aware of the studies that show that many men will admit to behavior that is legally (not to mention morally) rape/sexual assault as long as it isn’t called rape. Your bullshit, cutesy euphemisms aren’t fooling anybody.

  4. An Inconvenient Truth

    ‘consensual dominance’ means ‘both/all partners have mutually and openly discussed and agreed on paramaters of dominance in specific and exclusive scenarios with safewords, and an understanding of what will happen’

    Sex with you sounds almost as fun as filing taxes.

    And you people call PUA approaches to seduction “transactional?”

  5. Truthy, that’s how intelligent, well informed adults have sex yeah.

    Intelligent adults know that communication is the single most important factor in having good sex.

    So if forcing a woman to do things in bed without discussing that they are okay with her beforehand is your idea of “fun” then I expect that the plod will come knocking on your dorr before all too long.


    Woe is me. WOE.

  7. Oh, no, a rapist doesn’t think sex with me sounds like fun!!! THE HORROR. I mean, HALLEFUCKINGLUJAH.

  8. Would anyone else rather have nothing but “boring” sex for the rest of their lives rather than have sex with a PUA?

  9. This is not difficult.

    Person 1: “So, I’m really into tying people up, how does that sound to you?”
    2: “Yeah, I’m way into that. Just make sure my wrists are in front of me otherwise it gets uncomfortable. Oh, and you can spank me if you want, but don’t pull my hair.”
    1: “Awesome. If you want to stop, say ‘jellyfish’. So, shall we do this?”
    2: “Hell yeah!”*

    Or we could go with your scenario of “assumed submission” and just have Person 1 rape someone.

    Yeah… so I know which one sounds more fun. (pssst, it’s not the rape)

    (*Am I missing something when I do my taxes?)

  10. Also note how in my hypothetical scenario above, it applied to one specific scenario (i.e. that sex right there) not ‘just treat a person like shit whenever you see them, it will totally make them want to get in your pants’.

    Seriously. Consent. Truthy, can you please provide your definition of ‘consent’ for the class?

    And Historophilia, I’d rather do nothing but filing taxes for the rest of my life than have sex with a PUA.

  11. @thenatfantastic Sex with you sounds both safe and delightful! I would like to express my platonic admiration of your values!

  12. I’d rather go to the dentist than fuck a PUA, and I really don’t like dentists at all.

  13. Shit, is filing taxes supposed to be like having fun and consensual sex? I must be missing a deduction or something.

  14. Yeah I am definitely doing my taxes wrong.

  15. It just struck me that what these motherfuckers are saying is basically heterosexual intercourse is not fun if the woman doesn’t seem like she is making a concession to do it.


  16. Also they clearly have no concept of that fact that women do not all have the same sexual preferences and do not all think the same.

    For the last time we do not have a hive mind!

  17. An Inconvenient Truth

    Setting aside thenatfantastic’s boner-killing hypothetical scenario, I invite you to kindly remove your rape-goggles and enjoy this hot-off-the-presses illustration of seduction done right.

  18. And there are a number of perfectly legal ways to convince fence-sitters to act,

    That is not what ignoring someone’s consent is doing and you know it. Even the most skeesy salesperson knows that you can’t just fucking take the money out of the person’s wallet and hand them the merchandise and call it done. That person has to hand the money over themselves for it to be legal.

    Persisting when you encounter “countless objections” is taking the money out of the person’s wallet and throwing the shitty used appliance at the customer after the customer has said “Uh, no, I want to shop around for a bit.”

    As others have said, not that a woman’s body is property, but for fuck’s sake, if you view it as a sales pitch then this just shows that PUAs are also really shitty salespeople.

    To put it another way, when I was a temp and applying for jobs left and right, I read an article by a former salesperson turned hiring manager who said that it’s not a bad idea to “close” your interview, the way a salesperson would try to close a sale and ask your interviewer what you need to to say to convince them that you’re the right person for the job. I by no means think this is a magical job password, but last year when I was interviewing for my current position, I figured they already knew me since I’d temped for them before and had nothing to lose. So I asked “what do I need to say to show you that I’m the right person for this job?” they replied that they couldn’t give me a solid answer since I wasn’t the only one interviewing, but the fact that I asked that showed I was really interested and they really liked that. I got the job. So yeah, I “closed” that sale, but I did in a totally non-douchebag way. The PUA way would be to just show up for work at that office the next day and refuse to leave until they hire you (or escort you off the premises). I mean, they’d already talked to me on the phone a few times and even invited me to their place! That’s practically like saying they wanted to make me boss of everything but weren’t going to say so because well, you know, they didn’t want to seem desperate. /sarcasm

    One method implies that you are aware that the other person has needs too (which is good for sales since, duh, the other person is buying) the other shows you don’t give a shit about anyone else as long as you get what you want. Which if nothing else is a really terrible attitude to have (and probably a really good way to ensure that that company won’t consider you for another position ever again).

    Legally closing a sale is convincing someone without the use of force, threats of violence, or blackmail. Ignoring someone’s protestations is using force, period, and often it’s an implied threat of violence.

    All this talk about how “women love to be dominated” has the distinct air of douchebags who assumed that the women they raped “dominated” just wanted him to “take the lead” because coming to terms with the fact that they’ve probably raped someone (possibly multiple someones) is too difficult for their delicate sensibilities.

    The account of the douchemover who hand penetrated his date without consent where he details her shock sounds a HELL of a lot more like an account of a woman who submitted because she was scared because the guy obviously would not stop, rather than the account of a woman who was just dying to be dominated by a manly dominant man. That is the real inconvenient truth for you, I suspect.

  19. Oh, did Nat kill your boner? One can only hope that this will force you to think with your brain instead for a while.

  20. *sews boner-killing patch to feminazi boiler suit*

    Can you tell the class why two people talking about sex and consent like grown-ups kills your boner Truthy? Enquiring minds wish to know.

  21. Troof, please stop; I am starting to feel genuine pity that you think that being enthusiastically propositioned is unsexy.

    Seriously, you really think communicating about sex is a turn-off? That’s … sad.

    When you stop having to convince a partner that having sex is fun and they genuinely want to continue doing it, does that kill your boner too? Do you need to switch out partners before they get stale?

  22. Anyone else finding Truthy’s insistance on hiding his links with tinyurl really fucking creepy? Why would I click on some creepy dude’s link when I don’t know where it goes?

    I mean, chances are it just goes to some fucked up PUA shit (which is bad enough), but who knows?

  23. Trutho Punchout just really, really wants to rape someone; that’s why consent is a boner-killer for him.

    Also, not going to any of your tiny URLs, creep.

  24. He he, ninja’d by ShadetheDruid!

  25. I wonder if this “talking ruins everything, sex is only good if you make broad assumptions about what your partner wants and do it without their consent” rule carries over into other areas of life, too. Like, does Inconvenient Douche just inform his friends that they’re going to see a movie tonight and they better show up? Does he get mad when they talk about making plans and doing something that everyone would enjoy? The mind boggles.

  26. I actually bit on the tiny url’s. They all lead to Heartiste. Almost every link AIT has posted on this site goes to Heartiste. It’s almost like he’s trying to tell us something…

  27. thenatfantastic’s boner-killing hypothetical scenario

    Wow. Usually little rape apologist shits like you don’t come right out and say that women actually wanting to fuck them is a turn-off.

  28. Troof, NO ONE here (or probably elsewhere) gives a good goddamn about your boner.

  29. I read Truthy’s link (Heartiste AGAIN!). It’s discussing a half-hour long video in which a PUA ‘seduces’ a woman from Eastern Europe.

    Here’s some choice quotes:

    “At 9:24, she tries to disengage

    At 10:02, the girl is suspicious of his age and demands his ID. This rarely happens, but in those rare times it does, if you are concerned about your privacy, you should carry a fake ID. Anyhow, “logical” demands like these are mostly an Eastern Euro girl phenomenon. Wayne deflects superbly by offering a quid pro quo hug in exchange for the ID. She drops the subject. Shit test passed.

    At 19:20, she demurs rather coldly. Most beta males would have crumbled into dust after hearing this.

    20:53, kiss compliance test passed.

    That’s totally not creepy at all. The video apparently ends the date with her going back to his apartment. Heartiste says of this:

    “Outside of actually standing there watching him slip the chocobar into her snatch, I don’t think you could ask for better evidence of the effectiveness of game”

    Nope, not sleazy or rapey to say that any woman going to a man’s apartment WILL be having sex.

    Note that in this video the PUA is a MoC, and the woman is Eastern European (Heartiste says at one point “she’s confessing her (rational) fear of ghetto black guys to… a black guy.”). Ever mindful of the reciprocal disgustingness of his audience, Heartiste puts the anal fissure on top of this shit-sundae of a post by finishing with this gem:

    “PS In order to avert a predictable and repetitive shitstorm, you will be limited to one race comment. Make it count!”


  30. Like, does Inconvenient Douche just inform his friends that they’re going to see a movie tonight and they better show up?

    Assuming he has friends, which if he’s at all like he is here, is assuming a lot.

  31. @Gametime

    does Inconvenient Douche just inform his friends that they’re going to see a movie tonight and they better show up

    No, he just accosts people on the street, pushes them into his car and drives them there. Silly.


  33. No, he just accosts people on the street, pushes them into his car and drives them there. Silly.

    And then negs them until they pay for his ticket, as well as theirs. And popcorn.

  34. And then negs them until they pay for his ticket, as well as theirs. And popcorn.

    That’s consensual cinema-going, they’re totally into it. Some rapist dude on the internet told me so.

  35. Creative Writing Student

    He has to use a false name and set up a safehouse, though. It was totally consensual but these precautions are just in case his cinema ‘companions’ think otherwise.

  36. I watched some of the video Truthie linked to so I’ll comment on a few things.

    Heartiste’s over-analyzing makes it sound skeezier than it is, which is bad, since it is already skeezy in and of itself.

    The guy apparently got someone else to film the street shots and the woman is clearly unaware that she’s being filmed. Then they go back to the guy’s room(I assume) and there is still filming going on. No mention of she having agreed to being recorded. Add to that the fact that he is constantly trying to push her boundaries and that it is an advertisement video, so he is just using the woman as a prop to sell his PUA scheme. It is extremely creepy.

  37. [quote]I’d rather go to the dentist than fuck a PUA, and I really don’t like dentists at all.[/quote]

    I don’t like dentists either but if it was that or fuck a PUA

  38. @Dvärghundspossen: I totally want to move to Sweden now.

  39. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    I’d rather walk on a high windy bridge with inadequate railings than fuck a PUA. And I’m terrified of heights.

    Hey, this could be like the list of Things That Should Happen to Elam that was going a little while back.:)

  40. @Nerdypants: Well, remember that I wrote that I was so happy about the reaction of my colleague’s, simply because so many other guys were like “It’s next to impossible to know if a woman consents to sex or not!” when the matter was heavily debated in media…

  41. Just a note for An Inconvenient Truth – “Last Minute Resistance” is a woman voicing non-consent for sex. Trying to manipulate your way around is, by definition, rape.

    Also, if talking about sex with your partners before you have sex with them kills your boner, you’re probably a rapist.

  42. I’m beginning to think that LMR/ASD is an ideological claim by PUAs, in the Althusserian sense. It’s something one believes to make sense of the world, in the sense that noting that persistent men really do get laid more than begging men is an observation, and the error lies in using it as a catch-all guide for interpersonal interaction. I don’t know why PUAs like Fingerman use meta-discourse and implicit messages to back away from their ideologically totalizing discourse when it would be easiest and less dangerous not to make blanket claims about female behavior and issue dangerous prescriptive instructions, but it is probably tied to the guru role.. This is also partly a function of age since I’m old enough that the PUA scene was amused by its own novelty and ambivalent about missed opportunities rather than being in “Beast Mode” and ideologically constructing “Beast Mode” as a form of sociosexuality as Real Social Dynamics LLC now does. The claims about masculinity enclosed in those two words make my brain and nads hurt.

    I think you may be envisioning a scenario such as in [TW for rape, sexual assault, coercive isolation, assault] Amnesty International Norway’s “Nei er nei” video. (No link here because WHOA) as the default, where it’s pretty clear the dude is a rapist. Also Israel seems to have had 3rd-party submission of criminal complaints on behalf of the victim (“hagashat t’loonah plilit”) in the case above and bloggers such as Richard Silverstein are pretty thorough in publicizing alleged rapists.

  43. Wait, was Eurosabra just reasonably sensible if incredibly prolix, except for the little bit about how “PUA ain’t what it used to be”? Wasn’t zie one of our most boring trolls?

  44. I think Eurosabra is hoping that if he posts meandering, pointless comments filled with obfuscating pseudo-academia, we’ll forget about all the times he described how he manipulates and coerces women.

  45. It’s not manipulation if you have no power over her at all, and it’s not coercion as long as there’s an open door she can walk through at any time to step out of your life. I really don’t see my rap as anything more than a more sophisticated type of asking. Perhaps my past partners view me with less of a jaundiced view than you hyenas, however.

  46. It’s not abuse if you don’t hit her or scream. It’s not rape if she didn’t say no. It’s not a crime if I’m not convicted. I’m not a bad person if I don’t believe I did anything wrong.

  47. God damn you are creepy as fuck. That “open door” sounds more like an escape hatch for your conscience. “Of course she consented! She knew she could have left any time.”

    You are disgusting.

  48. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    “If you have no power over her at all” – are you willfully ignoring how much stronger a man, almost any man, is than almost any woman? How frightening it is when a woman doesn’t know if she CAN safely say no? And if you’re playing mind games with anyone to get them into bed you’re pressuring them and coercing them.

  49. Ah, yes, imagine scenarios that do not take place, and attribute actions to me that I do not take. I can understand why women can be afraid of the strength of other men, but I have a few interesting intersectional issues that prevent me from being a credible threat to anyone, although women may occasionally hallucinate such a threat while walking past me at night if they misread me as able-bodied. And mind games such as false partnering and the double-bind of asking someone to prove her adventurousness by sleeping with you are pretty weak and don’t even have the power of a street con. But most men’s presence and presentation are a credible threat, and opaque to any observer, which is why Schrödinger’s Rapist is such a valuable post.

  50. Dude.

    “It’s not manipulation if you have no power over her at all, and it’s not coercion as long as there’s an open door she can walk through at any time.”

    “I have a few interesting intersectional issues that prevent me from being a credible threat to anyone, although women may occasionally hallucinate such a threat while walking past me at night if they misread me as able-bodied.”

    Do you understand that these are contradictory?

  51. The law in Israel and California, the systems with which I’m familiar, are pretty explicit that an isolated speech act alone that results in consent to intercourse can only be coercion or “rape by deception” under a fairly limited range of circumstances, most of which involve abuse of institutional power or (in CA) fraud as to the nature of the act. MA and Israel criminalize fraud in the inducement as to identity, or a fraudulent promise of material benefits from participation in the act. So I don’t see how PUA stuff like “Prove you’re adventurous, sleep with me” can be anything but laughable when uttered to a legally-competent adult person in a normal social situation. And I think anyone who cares enough to not be a raging a$$ho7e would be careful not to block the exit, not to corner someone, not to hold someone down, not to trap someone’s hands against her sides, without explicit consent and a safeword. But yes, there was regrettable ambiguity in my previous post.

  52. @Eurosabra

    I love to go down to the park and tell children that Santa Claus doesn’t exist so that I can watch them cry their delicious little tears.

    I also like to torture cephalopods. While an octopus is probably considerably more intelligent than a lizard or a mouse, no invertebrates are considered “animals” for the purposes of animal cruelty laws in the US, so, that’s not against the law either. The fact that they’re sentient makes it so much more fun!

    Oh, wait, no, I don’t, because I’m not a moral imbecile who believes that right and wrong come through statute.

  53. Ew, Eurosabra is back. Why do you feel so compelled to keep repeating your icky scenarios here only to get the same predictable “you’re horrible, go away” response, over and over again? I feel like therapy would help more with whatever underlying issues compel you to do this than having the commenters here tell you how disgusting they find you. Unless maybe having women tell you how repugnant they find you is your kink.

    If that’s the case, go hire a domme.

  54. Therapy costs money I don’t currently have, and wasn’t effective anyway when I did have it. Dommes are another female way of monetizing male sexuality and issues. Remember, I think of the whole world *as a clip joint* to a certain extent. I just keep popping up to remind you that PUA is safe, legal, and consensual when properly done whenever ManBoobz goes off on a “PUA=Rape” tangent.

  55. Dommes are another female way of monetizing male sexuality and issues.

    hahahahahahaha, oh my god, dude, do you listen to yourself? Seriously, do yourself a favour and read your posts out loud before putting them up. Even you can’t be so dense as to go through with a statement like that once you realize how fucking ridiculous you sound.

    I just keep popping up to remind you that PUA is safe, legal, and consensual when properly done whenever ManBoobz goes off on a “PUA=Rape” tangent.

    If that’s true, you’re wasting your time, since we already know you’re, at best, a wannabe rapist. It’s not like we’re gonna suddenly go “Oh shit, a rape apologist and admitted manipulative asshole says PUA isn’t rape, guess we were wrong!”

    Also, if that were true, you’d fucking leave after popping in to drop your apologist load, instead of sticking around to bore us all with your inconsistent justifications and your faux-intellectual jargon.

  56. @Eurosabra

    If you can’t afford therapy, then you also can’t afford funny hats and nightclubs, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there.

    Also, therapy actually helps people, while PUA teaches them to avoid personal responsibility and be manipulative douches. What you’re saying is kind of like a diabetic saying “I can’t afford insulin, but I can afford gallons of high-grade maple syrup, so that means the syrup is good for me.”

  57. Remember, I think of the whole world *as a clip joint* to a certain extent.

    And this is just one of the many reasons why you need therapy.

  58. Responding to this

    Sally Strange is a good demonstration of the “I’m an atheist because I’m INTELLECTUALLY SUPERIOR” line of thought that is so closely associated with “the West is culturally superior,” etc (witness Ruby, for instance).

    and this

    That’s exactly what I got from it – and the whole ‘faith is a cognitive failure and bad and nothing good ever comes from it’ bollocks just made me think “hello, here’s another person who thinks they know better than I do what my experiences and interpretations of them and inner life are, better than I do.”

    Fuck that!

    I didn’t say a damn thing about y’all’s inner lives nor about my intellectual superiority. Like Ozymandias, I know that many theists are awesome people and smarter than me about many things, but basically just think they’re wrong about the whole existence of god thing. And of course, not all theists subscribe to the platitude that faith is a virtue.

    Anyway, it’s a fucking fact that faith is a cognitive error, not a “virtue” of any sort (I’m talking about the believing-in-the-face-of-contradictory-or-nonexistent-evidence kind of faith, not the kind of faith that’s a synonym for earned trust). If thinking that makes me intellectually superior to those who don’t agree, well, you said it, not me.

  59. David-Thank you very much for creating this website. Thanks for being a real man and showing the public what these insane Mra’s are really about. Ok-my opinion on your article-Wow just because a guy pays for a drink for a woman does NOT mean she is obligated to have sex with him. Gee-what times are these guys living in?! Some men in bars use alcohol and drugs as a weapon. They want to get the woman as drunk as hell to see if they can have her let her guard down and let him take her home. This is a very dangerous situation for the lady. Now the scumbag guy has all of the power and could rape her if she decides to say no once they are alone. Most people know this game but stupid mra’s want to turn this truth around and blame the woman. And… women are really ok buying their OWN FUCKIN’ drinks in the year 2013!!

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