[TRIGGER WARNING; UPDATED] A Voice for Men commenter claims that the Newtown shooting is evidence of the oppression of men

Men’s Rights activists and others in the manosphere often complain that it’s unfair to link their movement to killers like the virulent antifeminist mass murderers Marc Lepine and Anders Breivik, even though the antifeminist, anti-woman ideology of these killers is oftem indistinguishable from MRA thought.

But the plain fact is that they make the links themselves. Whenever there is some sort of mass killing by someone who is driven at least in part by the hatred of women, it seems like it’s only a matter of time before some MRA steps up to, if not explicitly endorse the killer, at least suggest some sort of sympathy or empathy with him and/or to suggest that the killing in some way is an understandable or justifiable or even praiseworthy reaction to the the alleged oppression of men.

This time it seems to have happened with record speed. Over on the A Voice for Men forum, one commenter, GregA, compares the mass killer in Newtown today — whose motives are still completely unknown — with oppressed people rising up against tyranny in the Middle East:


So far the only reply he’s gotten challenges this odious comparison, so that’s a tiny bit comforting.

Naturally, the MRAs will say that this commenter is some sort of feminist troll. But he’s made dozens of comments on the AVFM forums that are standard-issue MRA stuff – he seems to be a bit obsessed with the notion that feminist commenters online are being paid for commenting – and his comments in the past (at least those that I looked at) seem to have been generally well-received there.

EDITED TO ADD: If you would like to discuss the Newton shootings without having to think about this horrible comment of GregA’s, I’ve set up a separate no-trolls, no MRAs, thread for that.

EDITED TO ADD MORE: Meanwhile, over on A Voice for Men itself, one of the first commenters in a thread on the subject blames the shootings on, you guessed it, misandry:


Meanwhile, AVFM “managing editor” Dean Esmay complains that feminists “will find some way or other to blame us in specific for this.” In case Esmay is reading this, I am not blaming the Men’s Rights movement for this shooting, mainly because we have absolutely no idea what motivated the shooter. What I am doing is pointing out that someone on AVFM’s own forum, someone who has previously posted there extensively, is comparing this murderer of children to some kind of freedom fighter, and another in the very thread you are posting in has decided (based on absolutely nothing) that “misandry” is to blame.

You may also recall the numerous comments from MRAs justifying or at least excusing, the Seal Beach shooter.

Here are some more MRA comments on the Seal Beach murders which I chose not to post at the time. These are from A Voice for Men. (In the original thread they weren’t next to one another; there’s more horrible stuff in the thread besides these two comments.)



Are these guys “feminist trolls?” No. They are both long-time commenters at AVFM.

But again, pointing out these horrible comments is not the same as blaming the MRM for that shooting, or for the shooting today.

In the case of Lepine and Breivik, people linked them to MRAs because they had (or in the case of Breivik still has) virulently anti-feminist worldviews virtually identical with much of the stuff posted regularly on Men’s Rights sites, and other “manosphere” sties generally.

Presumably we will learn more about this shooter’s motivations, and then we can decide if anyone besides the shooter himself is to blame.

EDITED TO ADD ONCE MORE: Elam has now shut down the thread on A Voice for Men; as I write this the thread on the A Voice for Men forum is still up. I suggest you take a look at it and make screenshots. Elam says it’s because I’m “using comments from the thread in order to push his lies.” It’s not clear how quoting his followers (in full, without edits) is a “lie.” Apparently he’s unwilling to let his followers continue to post comments because, we can only assume, he knows they will say more horrific things, and people outside the AVFM cult might see what those inside it actually think.

Not, at this point, that there’s much doubt about what they think.

EDITED TO ADD STILL MORE: Meanwhile, over on The Spearhead:


As most of the readers here will know, the shooter was 20 years old, wasn’t a father and the shooting had nothing to do with any custody battle.

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon, Time.com, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on December 14, 2012, in a voice for men, antifeminism, men who should not ever be with women ever, MRA, oppressed men, playing the victim, sympathy for murderers and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 266 Comments.

  1. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    What a lousy fucking creep. Honestly – they present the idea of a god who is out-and-out evil, and then wonder why church attendences are falling?

  2. The thing is: the shooter attended a Catholic elementary school. There was almost surely prayer in his school environment growing up. Either this is a case of people trying to distract from gun control arguments and thinking “hmm, schools – prayer in schools! We haven’t brought that up in a bit!”, or the implication is that the tragedy wasn’t the shooter doing the actual shooting but God not protecting the kids, which doesn’t really sound very God-glorifying.

  3. If the God that those people worship exists he’s a real asshole.

    Brain bleach – belligerent cat, patient dog.

  4. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Heheh I think kitteh was saying “I just want to sit close, not have my face covered in drool!”

  5. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    More brain bleach: a pushycat.

  6. I have a pushycat. That’s the only reason I got out of bed today despite my transformation into a snot factory – she kept bugging me.

  7. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    She knows what’s best for you! Really!

    … Whaddya mean, getting up and feeding her isn’t what’s best for you?

  8. Yes, julmust… Coca cola has been campaigning for ages here to make their drink the Christmas drink of choice, but I don’t think they’re every gonna replace julmust.

  9. Scotland has Irn Bru as its favourite sugary drink rather than coke. it’s an interesting flavour.

  10. It’s hard to describe irn bru, isn’t it? I feel like the color is part of how you perceive the flavor too, and if they made it clear it might not be as good.

  11. Irn Bru got a (derogatory) mention in New Tricks the other night. And I love the Lonely Planet comment on it: “Definitely an acquired taste is the virulent orange-coloured fizzy drink, Irn-Bru; it’s 100% sugar with some pretty weird flavouring.”

    I stuck to tea and coffee.😛

  12. IKEA’s the only place you can get it here.

    A friend of mine was assigned the task of turning crappy wine into drinkable mulled wine this holiday. For some reason he was talking about going to Ikea to get grog as a potential ingredient. I either talked him out of it or he was screwing with me the whole time.

  13. We’re having a party on Friday which is going to involve mulled Buckfast. I think BigMomma and CassandraSays will understand my trepidation.

  14. When I think of Christmas drinks, I think of eggnog. I buy a bottle of Jim Beam eggnog every year to share with my family. You can’t get drunk on it, because it’s too rich and filling. I think it’s a good drink when you have a cold, too, because whiskey is good for colds.

  15. Why would you mull Buckfast? Is it a survival of the fittest type experiment to see which of the guests die?

  16. I’m not surprised that MRAs would try to pin the blame on women. Pathetic, really, since it was women who put themselves between the gunmen and the children. Those teachers are heros.

  17. @Cassandra

    I suspect that might be a side effect. Buckfast is the official drink of the punk scene, so when my friends heard about one of the clubs up North mulling it, it was decided that we had to do it too.

    I swear to god I am actually an adult and if they told me to jump off a cliff I wouldn’t do it.

  18. It sounds like it will taste horrible too. You have to remember that the Scots like torturing each other. We drink snakebite and blackcurrant voluntarily!

    (For Americans, snakebite is beer plus cider, so when you add blackcurrant it’s kind of the Jagermeister of Scotland, almost guaranteed to come back to haunt you later in the evening.)

  19. @thenatfantastic…buckfast *shudder*, mulled buckfast, *whimpers and hides*

    I was able to source Irn Bru in Oz. I have a can in my fridge for moments of desperation.

  20. I’ll report back next Saturday, assuming I survive the experiment.

  21. Don’t tell me you fear the experiment?

  22. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Irn Bru’s available here???

    Strewth, like we don’t produce enough dubious stuff already! (Not that I can talk, I don’t drink alcohol or fizzy drinks.)

  23. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    LOVE that cartoon, TTF!

  24. 😀 I search the internet for awesome so you don’t have to!

  25. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    ❤ 🙂

  26. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    I see that fuckwit Huckabee is now saying it’s not just the lack of prayer in schools that’s to blame for the murders, it’s “government funded abortion pills”, accepting human sexual orientations as normal rather than sinful, and the lack of publicly displayed nativity scenes.

    Seriously, how deep can this moron dig himself?

  27. Oh wow and what do you know. The entire mainstream media is saying masculinity and manhood are the cause of this tragedy. Whoops, I guess AVfM were right. Too bad you are so biased you wouldn’t report this.

    You know, I was all for equality and feminism until I reached your website David. Then, after advertising AVfM as horrible people I went to their site. Lo and behold, they say nothing that you put on your website. In fact, they point out obvious issues that men face. Guess you skimmed over those points.

    It makes me wonder if you can read. And, for someone who is so clearly biased, I see this movement for what it is. Misandry.

    Good luck, feminism is losing ever so slowly because of people like you David.

  28. Oh sad pretend feminist, please note the misquotes or just fuck off.

  29. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Do I catch a whiff of returning troll here? The stale smell of sockpuppet? Though as I just said elsewhere, misogynists’ nonsense tends to be a bit samey after a while.

    Hey dipshit, David links to AVfM and the other sites. He doesn’t make stuff up, unlike you and your pretence of ever having been a feminist.

  30. Hey my kitteh, sometimes these losers just make me soooo very tired. I can’t remember if you’re in aus but if you are great show on abc Jack Irish. Otherwise please to all man boobians except the trolls refresh and recover. Love yoyo

  31. I was totally going to be a feminist, you guys, but then I found one site that I didn’t like and now I think all feminists are the spawn of Satan. This is totally and sincerely what happened – I’m not a bad troll, it’s just that I find it hard to commit.

  32. No Cassandra, I was going to be a feminist but then there were no unicorns so fuck all women, mkay?

  33. No, what happens is that the unicorns refused to fuck me because of feminism and that’s when I realized that feminism is misandry.

  34. “If women don’t do exactly as I want them to, I don’t want them to have basic human rights any more”.

    Feminism has truly lost one of the greats.

  35. @kittehhelp

    At Coles where I live, actually. Good stuff.

  36. Argenti Aertheri

    “And, for someone who is so clearly biased, I see this movement for what it is. Misandry.”

    “Do I catch a whiff of returning troll here? The stale smell of sockpuppet?”

    Yeah, I’m smelling a familiar troll here too. Though I think we may’ve had someone going by “A former feminist” or something similar before — I’m not sure this one got banned and isn’t just that troll repeating on us. (Ew, regurgitated troll, tastes worse than regurgitated wasabi)

  37. Wow, that’s some epically bad grammar in the bit Argenti quoted.

  38. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    now I think all feminists are the spawn of Satan

    Does that mean we were all conceived by MAYONNAISE?

  39. On the eighth day, while the Lord was still resting, Satan got busy with some bread and feminism was born.

  40. Regurgitated troll, sounds like I feel after chemo. Tried to take my aggression out with the alt-fighters, (it’s all the juuus) and the refugs, (arm all kiddies) but now I’m tired and sad and I just want to kick fake feminists arse while I still have the strength.

  41. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Cassandra – see, your comment t’other day about mayo being Satan’s spooge has been BURNED INTO MY BRAIN.

  42. Argenti Aertheri

    Yoyo — Feel free to eat the troll, trolls are crunchy and good with ketchup (or as soup crackers, depending what you’re up for). Or ignore the troll and let the rest of us have crunchy troll, whichever works for you (basically, the troll is yours if you want to play).

    Hope chemo goes well for you, and doesn’t make you feel too awful.

  43. Argenti Aertheri

    “Wow, that’s some epically bad grammar in the bit Argenti quoted.”

    Remind you of any previous troll’s grammar? I’m really hoping I’m wrong here, said troll was epically annoying.

  44. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Yoyo – internet hugs if you want ’em. Chemo is a horrible horrible thing. I hope its working for you.

    I saw your message about Jack Irish, haven’t been watching it, though. Now that New Tricks is over we’re just watching DVDs.

  45. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help


  46. Thank you argenti, when I think of eating troll, which is seldom, I think of the fabulous movie, ” the cook the thief The wife the lover”. Mmmm runs to toilet xx

  47. Argenti Aertheri

    Might have to add that to my movie queue, though it’s a few miles long already!

    And I must be wrong on my troll guess, or we’d have had a troll-splosion by now.

  48. is this fucker on “the spear head” for real?!

    “DW3 December 14, 2012 at 19:54

    Fuck you, feminists.

    Every second I spend with my young son, is in spite of the best efforts of the feminist system. I value my time as a family man more than all of the rest of my life combined. If the feminists involved in my court experience in the world of family law had had their way, I would continue to be excluded from my darling son’s life.

    Actively working to keep men away from their sons and daughters is unspeakable evil, the worst evil I can imagine. It is far, far worse than any other crime, especially far worse than any rape. Fuck you evil scumbags for being so keen to harm children for your violent ideology.”

  49. Argenti Aertheri

    Kaitlyn, that is par the course over there, so quite possibly. They seem to be unable to grasp just how much you have to fuck up to have only supervised visits — most divorced couples split weekends and holidays, or similar arrangement (eg school year in one place, summer the other, if the parents live rather far apart). So for all they say they love their kids, they only seem to “love” them as pawns in a bitter divorce. Which will, of course, not please the judge, which, in turn, makes them think the system is biased towards women // run by feminists.

    As far as “worse than rape” — it’s that they are unable to fathom rape as anything beside “we had sex, she lied and said it was rape” — rape doesn’t exist to some of them, at all, and the rest seem to stupid to grasp that date rape is rape (and gods forbid they ever mention male rape victims, then they’re all about how feminists ignore the real numbers and how common this is and generally they become frothing rage while sucking at math).

    And that was one hell of a run-on sentence, my apologies.

  50. Every second I spend with my young son, is in spite of the best efforts of the feminist system. I value my time as a family man more than all of the rest of my life combined. If the feminists involved in my court experience in the world of family law had had their way, I would continue to be excluded from my darling son’s life.

    Wow, sucks for him that they have Amber Alerts now. They even have Amber Alerts on cellphones now.

  51. To MRAs, everything is worse than rape. Stubbing your toe is worse than rape. Missing your bus is worse than rape.

    What’s funny is that they don’t realize what this tells everyone else about them.

  52. That last link was a bit heavy on the acronyms so I wanted to give a little context. There’s a new emergency alert service that just recently rolled out for things like severe weather warnings that can send messages out to everybody’s cellphone in a particular area at the same time, called “cell broadcast”. The emergency feature is called CMAS.

    Anyway, AMBER Alerts are a component of the system, so now that this piece of the system is turning on, in the future whenever some asshole abducts his kid(s) from whoever is supposed to have custody of them, and they get an Amber Alert called on them, then a whole bunch of people’s iPhones and Android phones are going to get a little notification with their license plate number (unless you unsubscribe from the feature in the correct settings panel) so they’re not going to have anywhere to hide for very long.

    I happen to know more about this feature than anyone should have to learn, since I wrote the code for Google for the CMAS support in the Nexus models of Android phones. It’s based on some work I wrote in 2011 for Japan called ETWS, for Earthquake Tsunami Warning System. The U.S. version features the infamous DTMF tone dating back to the original Emergency Broadcast System, you know, “this is a test, this is only a test…” So as the first severe storm and flash flood and tornado warnings are getting broadcast on the system, I know it’s working because I’m getting bug reports of little things not working quite right. It’s extremely rewarding to have worked on something that could literally save people’s lives that wasn’t there before.

    It’s interesting that in Japan the most important categories for their emergency broadcast system are Earthquake, Tsunami, Earthquake & Tsunami, and Godzilla Test Message. While in the U.S., owing to our different preoccupations and fears, the categories are, from highest to lowest, Presidential Level Alert (the one category you’re not allowed to unsubscribe your phone from, so when Obama tells everyone he’s coming to take all the guns for the New World Order, you’ll know about it, man), Extreme Alert, Severe Alert, then AMBER Alert. Then within the Extreme and Severe priorities, you have subcategories for things like fires, floods, tornados, Chem/Bio/Radiological/High-Explosive Threats, and other cheery things to think about.

    I’m just waiting for the NWO conspiracy types to discover all of this Big Brother stuff lurking inside their new smartphones and link it with the preexisting FEMA camps and “false flag ops” and whatnot. I’m sure false Amber Alert accusations will be the new false rape accusations. Ugh. Glad I had the opportunity to give them something new to fear before they go abducting their kids (or someone else’s).

  53. Argenti Aertheri

    “Ugh. Glad I had the opportunity to give them something new to fear before they go abducting their kids (or someone else’s).”

    Pardon my crassness, but fuck them. You get ALL THE INTERNETS for coding something designed to save lives. That’s awesome!

    I’m curious — just smartphones, or will my new shiny iPad be able to get this system too? Thing’s still wrapped and waiting for the 25th, so idk what it’s really capable of (cellular with a pre-paid plan is a go, so I assume it can do most things a smartphone can do?)

  54. Jake, that is super cool. All the internets + all the cells to you.

  55. Why am I hated for being female.

    It doesn’t matter how many times I’ve been hit, or hurt, strangled by my husband, or how many times he’s raped me while out on bail threatening me with things that would scare anyone, or my fears for my preschool-aged children.

    All that matters is that it’s my fault.

    These men go and shoot women and kill them because they are mad at us for living.

    They have no idea how hard it is – living.

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