Men’s Rights Redditors (still) can’t tell misogynistic caricatures of women from the real thing

Evil woman printing out evil office sex list.

Evil woman printing out evil office sex list.

It’s a challenge for every serious writer of fiction: how to write convincing characters of the opposite sex.* Some writers can pull it off, some — even eminent ones — can’t. James Joyce is still getting props for the way he got into Molly Bloom’s dirty, dirty mind; Tom Wolfe was nearly laughed out of the sorority by some critics when he wrote a book from the point of view of a college student named Charlotte Simmons.  (And it’s not just men who get accused of not being able to think outside their own gender: an essay in Salon not long ago suggested that Girls creator Lena Dunham “can’t write men.”)

We can add one more name to the long list of male authors who can’t write women: The fellow who calls himself fish_finger on Reddit.

The other day, Mr. Finger posted what he claimed was a true story about some women at his workplace who had been passing around a list of their male colleagues, rated “hot or not” on the customary 1-10 scale, and covered with crude sexual comments about them. The comments about the hottest guys, he wrote,

incited rape and were seriously disturbing. One female forwarded it onto HR and the rest of the department, but no action has been taken. HR have said it was just a joke and should be forgotten.

So far, it sounds unlikely, but it’s at least within the realm of the possible, allowing for a bit of the typical Men’s Rights exaggeration.

The trouble came when someone asked Mr. Finger what the comments were like, and he replied with this:

fish_finger 51 points  "I'd tie him up and enjoying his cries for help, whilst I force him inside me"  "Xxxxx is a stud, next time I get him alone I'll whip off those pants and find out what size pistol he's packing"  "A* genetic material, can anyone tell him where he lives so I can raid the trash for disposed condoms?" Hope he's been putting hot sauce in...
Yeah, I think it’s pretty safe to say that no woman in the history of the universe has ever uttered, or set down on paper, either the first or third comment in that list. I’m pretty sure women don’t sneak around in the alleys behind the houses of handsome dudes with turkey basters in hand, rifling through the trash in hopes of finding discarded condoms with still-viable sperm swimming around inside of them.

These aren’t comments from actual women. These are Men’s Rights myths come to life.

Naturally, the folks in r/againstmensrights are having a field day with this one. And while most of those in r/mensrights are taking Mr. Fingers completely seriously — his post got nearly 700 upvotes, and the most heavily upvoted responses to these allegedly real comments urge him to take the company to court — there are even some there who can see it’s a fake.

Still, Mr. Finger doesn’t seem like a typical troll. His account is four months old, and he seems to spend most of his time on Reddit talking with utmost sincerity about pet rats.

But he has posted previous comments in r/mensrights about his workplace that have the same air of unreality about them. In one, he claimed to have gotten in trouble “for not being courteous to a females colleagues request that only females sit next to her and men must not be within 10m [of] her desk.”

He got 86 upvotes for that one. How many offices are big enough to make this even possible?

As best as I can figure it, Mr. Finger is both a sincere rat lover and a sincere Men’s Rightser; it’s just that he apparently thinks the best way to advance Men’s Rights is to tell tall tales about men being oppressed.

That, in itself, is not all that surprising; the Men’s Rights movement is built on imaginary oppression.

But what is a little more surprising is how willing other MRAs are to accept the completely unbelievable comments he claims are from the women in his office as real. Are they really that out of tune with how women actually think?

Do they have so little empathy and understanding that they actually think the women sitting next to them at work not only look at men as little more than walking repositories of genetic material — but that they would rather steal their sperm from the garbage than have sex with them? That they think these women think of sex in terms of “engulfing” men’s penises?

Apparently for a lot of Men’s Rightsers the answer is yes.

*Gender is obviously more complicated than the traditional gender binary; I am talking here mostly about cis men and women trying to write from the point of view of cis women and men on the opposite side of the binary.

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon,, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on July 1, 2013, in evil women, female beep boop, gullibility, hundreds of upvotes, imaginary oppression, lying liars, misogyny, MRA, playing the victim, pussy pass, rape, reddit, shit that never happened, the eternal solipsism of the MRA mind and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 202 Comments.

  1. I would like to report that my new flat is a veritable hub of the Furrinati. I have met 7 cats which I have dutifully petted.

    Three black cats – Crowley, Smudge and Sophia *
    One ginger tabby – Jerome
    One beautiful gray long-hair – Missy
    One obnoxious chocolate saimese named Sione
    And one unnamed tuxedo tabby.

    At least Jerome and Crowley are strays, so I’m attempting to make them live with me.

    *note, all cats except Missy unofficially named by me.

  2. Some male rats are going their own way though and live in male only groups without contact to those damned female rats.

    Sometimes those bitches however invade the sacred male only space and force their smell on the poor male rats (in animal shelters for example), causing them to become aggressive towards each other and destroying the harmony in the group. Totally on purpose of course. All problems in ratgroups are the fault of female rats.

    Okay, misandric rats are way too much fun. I think I should go back to lurking.

  3. @kittehserf “most women spend SO much time trying to become single mothers. Because it’s such an easy life.”

    Ugh. I hate when people say crap like that. The MRA mindset baffles me.

    @auggziliary re: “I remember a YouTube comment on some video on male birth control saying “finally, I bet women are going to get pissed about this!”

    This makes me wonder if these guys have even MET any women in real life. I’ve never MET a woman who would be upset about a man taking on the responsibility and risks of hormonal birth control, leaving them free to just enjoy the sex. This goes back to the “all women want babies. All women want to be constantly pregnant” insanity. Nobody observes these behaviors in women in the real world (definitely not the all women want to be pregnant constantly) and yet, somehow they overlook that small fact.

  4. katzentier – RGTOW! The rats’ rights movement of the 21st century!

    WeeBoy – yay for the Furrinati, good luck with tempting Jerome and Crowley to live with you. Fingers crossed.🙂

  5. Chie Satonaka

    This is a perfect illustration of the blinders these guys wear. Lists like this exist in the real world:

    He could have easily found one of those and used it as a framework to see how real women write about their sexual conquests. However, he was so invested in his own worldview being the “right” one that he would never do that — because it would mean admitting that he’s wrong.

  6. Chie Satonaka

    *it would mean admitting that he’s wrong about how women speak, how they view men, etc.

  7. Is it just me or do other peeps find male rats aesthetically disturbing?

  8. I think someone who sincerely loves his pet rats can’t be a truly bad person.

  9. @Yoyo
    I don’t mind the look of their balls ( assuming that’s what you’re referring to) and would actually like to keep a group of males too. Sadly I neither have the time nor the money and space to house, feed and entertain more of the little critters. I spend enormous amounts of money ( considering I don’t have much to begin with) on my five lady darlings already. Whoever thinks rats are cheap pets is very very wrong.

    Maybe I’ll make the transition to males when my old ladies cross over. Then I’ll engage in horrible misandry, because this means getting castrates, because I’m not going to let the last of my currently young ones spend their old day without ratty companionship.

  10. CassandraSays

    I can’t say that “do I like the look of this animal’s testicles?” has ever been a consideration for me when choosing a pet.

    (On any other blog that would be a straightforward statement, but here it will probably be interpreted through the angrytrollfilter as either misandry or bestiality.)

  11. All pets are expensive if they happen to fall ill… Just came back from the vets with my Italian greyhound who’s got an ear infection. He had to be put under narcosis and have his ears thoroughly cleaned, plus they’ve taken samples to see what kind of bacteria he has before giving him antibiotics. 4600 SKr in total, although his health insurance covered some of it, so I ended up paying 2300 SKr. *sigh*

  12. The individual vet treatments are cheap in comparison to dogs or cats. But rats age fast and now that three out of five are rat grannies I have an appointment with the vet approximately once a month. We’ve had among other things two tumor explantations in the last few months, a wound and a pulmonary infection. and i can’t just let them suffer.

    a good cage is pricey, but it’s money you only have to pay once and worth it, both in space for the rats snd cleaning comfort for the owner.

    Good Food is another issue, but eh… apparently I have the biggest sloths in germany. It can’t be normal how much mine eat each day.

  13. we are about to move onto a boat and I am seriously considering shipping my cat across the Atlantic to come live with us. Total cost of pet passport, etc + air fare + a locator tag for when she arrives? Approaching £1500/$2300.

    It is incredibly difficult to picture spending this much money on a small domestic cat, and it seems selfish and incredibly ridiculous. I am incredibly privileged that our friends and family gave us the money as a wedding gift, so that I can even consider the cost. BUT THERE IS A HOLE IN MY HEART WHERE MY CAT NEEDS TO GO AND I AM NOT SORRY.

    tl;dr I don’t think there is actually an adequate defense against spending ALL YOUR MONEY on your pets when they need it – even if they don’t seem like particularly valuable pets to others. I don’t think it’s something we need to feel guilty about, either. Although I do appreciate that I am lucky to be able to care for my cat financially, if I have the money to do so, there is no question that I will do so.

  14. My cats and dog were like family members to me. I would have done everything for them. I miss them so much…
    Now I’ve decided that I won’t be having any more pets because it is too hard for me when they die. I don’t know if this makes sense but it feels like I’ve lost a part of myself.
    I’m sorry, I know I’m a bit dramatic.

  15. @opium4themasses:

    Ah, Japanese variety shows. Can you imagine if an American variety show decided to feature hilarious cbt as part of its programming?

    Actually yes. “America’s Funniest groin injuries Home Videos” and “Jackass” come to mind.

  16. My stupid fish’s stupid filter broke yesterday. I can barely afford to eat right now but I was late for work buying/installing a new one, bought with the last of my money for the week. Stupid fish. But how can I just let him die? He’s so cute with his widdle betta face! Also he’s alive and I agreed to be responsible for him when I bought him. So it sucks I’m broke(r) now but I don’t really consider it much of a choice.

    I read the “hope he put hot sauce in” as being something the fictional woman supposedly wrote, but “she” meant it in a wink-wink nudge-nudge sort of way. Like there’s an implied “for his own good, although it would ruin my plans.” Do you know what I mean?

  17. thebionicmommy

    It’s hilarious that these guys believe sperm is scarce and valuable, like a rare earth mineral or helium. Let’s say there is a cis woman who wants to get pregnant. Then she could visit a fertility doctor and they would hook her up with donor sperm and do an intrauterine insemination for $200 to $500. Or she could just ask around to some cis men and find someone who would be willing to impregnate her. The idea of her digging through garbage to find sperm is absurd.

  18. titianblue:

    Back at the original post, I assume no Men’s Rightser picked up that it was a woman who forwarded the alleged list to HR. Well, I assume he means a woman – at least it was a female something but probably not the office cat.

    See, MRAs, feminists are fighting sexism of whatever flavour!

    Nah, she was just forwarding it to her fellow feminists in HR (naturally, HR, which actually investigates claims of sexism, MUST be full of feminists, amirite?) so they could share the LULZ.

    Also, I’ve been privvy to sexualized conversations about men, by women. Yes, they can get raunchy, and even rape-y (as Dvar noted, of course, there’s far less of a threat-factor involved there, so it wasn’t anywhere near as offensive/troubling as similar comments by guys would be). But not once did they ever involve words like “engulf”. IIRC, “ride” was the verb of choice, and yeah, procreation was the last thing on their minds.

  19. It’s hilarious that these guys believe sperm is scarce and valuable, like a rare earth mineral or helium. Let’s say there is a cis woman who wants to get pregnant. Then she could visit a fertility doctor and they would hook her up with donor sperm and do an intrauterine insemination for $200 to $500. Or she could just ask around to some cis men and find someone who would be willing to impregnate her. The idea of her digging through garbage to find sperm is absurd.

    A friend of my sister’s have begun entertaining “a trip to Denmark” (=euphemism for being impregnated by donor sperm; in Sweden it’s not legal to impregnate single women, but in Denmark it is), since she’s single, past thirty and wants a baby. I should tell her that she could save a lot of money by digging through dumpsters for used condoms instead…

  20. Okay, this is a bit off topic on this thread, but do you guys remember that MRA who claimed that hot Asian girls are the least discriminated against in society? This Swedish artist, who would probably count as “hot” as well as Asian according to most people’s standards, have made an art project where various actors read up messages she’s found on an internet dating site from guys specifically looking for Asian girls whom she got in touch with

    The creepiness factor varies about, but check out, for instance, the guy around nine minutes in the first video… Certainly hot Asian chicks are incredibly privileged!

    (Although most “incels” would probably think so even after watching these videos, since people want to have sex with her… and apparently that’s all that counts…)

  21. Also this tumblr, where the creepiness really flourishes:

  22. Oh, MRAs.

    Women do not have sexual fantasies about bearing children. If you ever hear a woman say something like “I’d like to have his children”, we are not literally talking about how sexy it would be to have babies. We’re talking about actually having sex with that person, a lot, and forever. We’d like having sex with that guy so much we’d even consider having babies with him.

    Not that going through the trash for his used condoms gives us the ‘gina tingles.

  23. Did it ever even occur to you that the proper response to ignorance is education, not insults? In the first paragraph you clearly identify this as a real and consistent HUMAN problem that both men and women face. You then dedicate the rest of the post to insulting and disparaging men.

  24. Did it ever even occur to you that the proper response to ignorance is education, not insults?

    Why can’t there be both?

    Seriously though, why is it our problem to educate all the time? Why is it that we can’t take a brief break from having to educate everyone all the time? Have you any idea how exhausting it is to constantly have to educate ignorant people about the same damn thing over and over again? Why isn’t it appropriate for people who are ignorant, once they have been notified they are ignorant and/or awful for them to seek out information and educate themselves. The onus is not on us to educate, it’s on others to educate themselves. This information isn’t hard to find, cursory google searches will answer most of the questions.

  25. Molly Moon — next time you need fish stuff and it isn’t an emergency, let me know, I have LOTS of old equipment. I save everything when I upgrade, so I have, for example, a 55g hang in back filter than should work fine (idk if I still have the bio wheels though). I’d be happy to free up some space and help out a fishie!

  26. Yes, GNL, that’s why this blog is called “The blog of tips about writing other genders convincingly.”

  27. RE: genderneutrallanguage

    genderneutrallanguage | July 2, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Did it ever even occur to you that the proper response to ignorance is education, not insults?

    This is a mockery site, not an education site.

    You then dedicate the rest of the post to insulting and disparaging men.


  28. @Argenti

    That’s much appreciated and I’ll keep it in mind! Although I think the 55g filter would be a little overkill for my little 10g tank😉

  29. Also I’m not positive that the correct response to someone obviously lying in order to make women look horrible is to explain to him how to do so more convincingly.

  30. Plus, David doesn’t mock men as a group, he specifically mocks MRA:s stupid enough to believe women steal condoms out of trash cans to impregnate themselves with. Comparing that kind of idiocy to authors who simply have trouble writing another gender was a so-called JOKE.

  31. Just repeating this:

    RE: genderneutrallanguage

    genderneutrallanguage | July 2, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Did it ever even occur to you that the proper response to ignorance is education, not insults?

    This is a mockery site, not an education site.

    You then dedicate the rest of the post to insulting and disparaging men.


  32. I’m not here to educate misogynistic MRAs/PUAs. etc; I’m here to warn other people about them, and have a few laughs at their expense because they are terrible and deserve to be laughed at. The people I write about here are not decent confused people. They are assholes and liars and haters.

  33. Also, what Dvärghundspossen said.

  34. So… having pet rats, is that alpha or not?

  35. GNL:

    Did it ever even occur to you that the proper response to ignorance is education, not insults?

    Do you know where the fuck you are?

    Besides, I’m not sure all the education in the world could help you at this point.

  36. @GNL

    Did it ever even occur to you that the proper response to ignorance is education, not insults?

    In addition to the fact that this blog is about mocking misogynists, insults are always acceptable so long as they aren’t bigoted and/or abusive in nature.

    In the first paragraph you clearly identify this as a real and consistent HUMAN problem that both men and women face. You then dedicate the rest of the post to insulting and disparaging men.

    There isn’t even an implicit judgment cast on men as a group throughout the article. So you’re full of shit.

  37. Genderneutrallanguage(gnl?)
    How exactly did he insult and disparage *men*? I’m pretty sure being a man doesn’t make you an MRA asshat who believes in idiotic things like sperm jacking from dumpsters.

  38. Wait, Genderneutrallanguage wasn’t joking? Wow.

  39. no, GNL has shat in threads here before. They are never joking.

  40. WeeBoy: I don’t know what it was in the shampoo which caused the pain, but it wasn’t nettle. Nettles sting because of a specialised cell. That cell falls apart a couple of hours after the nettle is cut.

    There are people who use nettles as food (I think nettle soup is sort of dull, but that’s me, and I’ve been told of some dishes that sound good). Nettle also makes great yarn/thread (better than flax) but they have to be harvested by pulling them out by hand (you need the roots) and that means mucking about with them while they are alive, and can sting.

    Which is why flax was the plant of choice.

  41. I was required to get a urethral swabbing once… after the kidney stone it was the most painful thing I’ve ever had. The only reason I didn’t puke on the doctor was that I was too busy trying not to pass out.

  42. GNL: . You then dedicate the rest of the post to insulting and disparaging men.

    To paraphrase the MRM, we don’t hate men, we are anitpathetic to the MRAs/PUAs/Misogynists of the world.

    Some of whom are (GASP!) women. Ie. Susan Walsh, GWW/Sunshine Mary, et al., and they get mocked too.

  43. Fatman: No, GNL was not joking. GNL is noun, not a gerund.

  44. “You then dedicate the rest of the post to insulting and disparaging mocking men misogynistic gobshites.”


  45. I’m sorry to learn of fellow rat people amongst the MRA’s. I think they would quake before my fiercely independent female alpha pi-rats. ARRGH.

    Is the list real or not? I will say that I once knew of a die-hard fan of a well-known rock band who somehow discovered the New York address (or at least, what she believed to be the address)of one of the band members and talked of snooping through the trash out front of that building. But speaking as another woman, I could list several levels of ethical and hygienic wrong with that. Even if there is a specific person in that office with that kind of lack of boundaries, I would hope the MRA’s aren’t using this as an example of how women think in general, though I suspect some of them are.

  46. What did GNL want us to educate MRA/PUA types on anyway? The first paragraph of the OP talks about how hard it is to write imaginary characters of the opposite gender. Did he want David to teach fish_finger how to write better imaginary misandrist women?

    I think this calls for…. RANDOM STORY TIME!

    How did that song go again?

    “At the end of the day you’re another day older”

    Becca’s upstairs neighbor had been up watching a damn movie until four in the morning. She knew this because she had spent the first hour convincing herself that someone would make a noise complaint, the next thirty minutes making a noise complaint, and the rest stairing at the clock in her room fervently wishing for something to explode. You would think the police would do something after the 6th complaint about the same person, but apparently nobody in this shithole complex gives a damn about noise. At least it covers up the sound of rats chewing away the walls.

    In the morning Becca would awaken to the sweet toll of loud thumping from below, alerting to her fact that she had been sleeping forty-five minutes into her hour-long alarm. Sometimes there would be yelling. Becca particularly enjoyed the yelling.

    Awake and energized, Becca would throw herself off her bed and attempt to drag herself to the bathroom. Sadly this would result in her hair making an unscheduled appearence underneath her hands, so that when she finally made the effort to stand up she would be yanked ceremoniously back to the ground. After this, she would regard herself in the mirror as she would strip down, turn on the water, and proceed to take the world’s shortest shower. That’s right, the hot water was out.

    A quick scramble for clean towls, clean panties, cleanish bra, her job’s uniform, a cup of cold coffee, and something that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike toast and she would be ready to tackle the day.

    It’s times like these that made Becca wish she had grabbed a nice man when she had the chance.

    That’s right, a man. Becca was 29, almost 30. Her biological clock had all but tocked out, and all the men around her were evolutionarily designed to desire younger women. She needed some of that sweet, sweet child support. Maybe then she could move out of this hell and onto something bigger. A mansion, maybe. That sounds good. A mansion with a grand staircase at the entrance, a solid gold fountain (Becca just loved gold for some reason), a grand outdoor pool, and a cadre of manservants in leopard-skin speedos, all oiled-up and hunky and…

    Err, where was she? Oh yeah… to the office.

    One short (hour-long) transit in a bus that smells only mildly of urine and she would arrive. At this point, Becca might crack her first genuine smile of the day. Not because she liked her job or anything, oh no, fuck this whole company. No, her smile would signal another day she might be able to spend chatting away with her girlfriends in HR.

    Last week they passed around a list of the hottest guys in the office (nobody really spectacular, though some of the guys in the higher-paid positions did seem oddly attractive). They’d even write little notes to each other; they got rather scandelous at times. Becca would spend all day flipping between facebook and boys. She wasn’t worried about being fired; affirmative action means that the company must keep her employed no matter what. Basically, if her boss does check up on her, the worst she would get is a slap on the wrist.

    At the end of the day, she would check out of her job and once again head back to her apartment. Once the bus smelled like yogurt. That was an interesting day. Uniform off, food cooked, dinner sniffed curiously and eaten hesitently, and it would be time to sleep before Becca knew it. Just as long as her upstairs neighbor would decide to give the movie marathon a miss.

    As Becca laid her head down, snuggled beneath both-eaten covers, she paused and reflected on the day. This had to stop, and Becca had a foolproof plan that would rake in the money. It involved a turkeybaster and a garbage can. Maybe she could work out the details with her friends in HR tomorrow. They’d been mentioning this thing called “Feminism,” maybe she should look into that.

    Huh… I apologize to fish_finger, it is in fact quite hard to write female characters. Oh well.

  47. @kirbywarp, No, you were pitch perfect — All Women Are Like That.😀

  48. Beautiful. Is “dinner sniffed curiously and eaten hesitantly” a cat reference?

  49. Crumbelievable

    …“for not being courteous to a females colleagues request that only females sit next to her and men must not be within 10m [of] her desk.”

    Ah yes, “females and men”, one of my (least) favorite MRA tropes

  50. @katz:

    It is if you want it to be! (It wasn’t when I wrote it, but the story could definitely use more cat references)


    It’s not just MRAs. The same thing is all over reddit. Basically, MRAs never say anything new… they just collect all the shitty things men say and do into one place and double-down on it.

  51. Scarletpipstrelle… Holy fuck…. I’m not even going to click on it because I’m in a bad mood right now.
    Has David seen this?

  52. That AVFM piece is basically a troll piece by Paul; he makes up stuff and “footnotes” fake studies and then at the end he says, see, look, I made stuff up, that’s what feminists do all the time!

    Whe he wrote it — it’s from 2011 — I didn’t want to dignify it with a response. Maybe I should have, but his “point” was so idiotic I didn’t feel like it. Especially since his real point is to anger feminists and upset rape victims and then pretend he was only making an intellectual point.

  53. I don’t even… His point is terrible/stupid. Jesus.

  54. >>>Did it ever even occur to you that the proper response to ignorance is education, not insults?

    Mistaken Liberal Axiom 1: “All social conflict stems from lack of education.”
    (Even though you’re just a reactionary asshole trying to use their Mistaken Axioms against them.)

    MRAs aren’t uneducated. They know full well what they want and where they stand. They oppose equality because they benefit from the status quo. People don’t discriminate against other people because they are ignorant of the damage they do, but because they benefit from the damage they do.

    Insults is the least damaging thing that MRAs deserve.

  55. To be fair, most MRAs know squat about feminism. Well they think they know a lot, but they don’t.

  56. “Meanwhile, over on AVFM, I’m rubbing my eyes – did I really see this there?

    So…his point is that feminists care about rape culture for ulterior motives i.e. they’re just sexually repressed?

    I’m honestly confused. What kind of “intellectual” point is he even trying to make?

  57. Yeah auggzillary, it’s not like “educating” them is going to help though, because they don’t listen anyway.

  58. Course: Education for fish_finger

    Instructor: Life (asst: Decent Human Beings)


    1) You should not make up things about women in order to make it seem like women are evil.

    2) Lying more convincingly is no better than lying in as hilariously transparent a way as you have here.

    3) You are terrible.

  59. CassandraSays

    4) Never use the word “whilst” in porn, it’s a buzzkill
    5) When writing out your personal fantasies and pretending they were written by a lady it’s very important to remember to gender your pronouns correctly. For example, “can anyone tell him where he lives” is confusing to readers. Is the guy going to raid his own trash for used condoms? Is he suffering from amnesia?

  60. 6) another porn buzzkill? Dumpster sperm being taken and used by women to make revenge babies. The reader likes to relate to the erotica in order to get into it, and I cannot relate to these women.

  61. CassandraSays

    7) Anything that involves women putting trash inside their vaginas is a definite no-no in general.

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