Penis size: The Real Story, via the Red Pill Women subreddit
Here’s an interesting, er, historical discussion I found in the Red Pill Women subreddit, in a larger discussion of vagina size:
The more you know!
The entire discussion is, of course, a gold mine of misogynistic nonsense. You can dive right in here, or see some of the more memorable quotes highlighted in this Blue Pill discussion.
Posted on July 8, 2013, in citation needed, crackpottery, homophobia, ladies against women, literal nazis, oppressed white men, penises, racism, red pill, reddit and tagged penis size, PUA, racism, red pill, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 277 Comments.
RE: guffaw-ferrets
*eyeroll* I wish I could say I was surprised, except me and hubby used to mock gay hookups on Craigslist. The fixation on penis has never been something I understood-which immediately seems to nix me from 95% of all gay porn ever.
I just can’t imagine saying “your genitals must look like this or they’re not pretty enough so don’t even talk to me” in a dating ad. Manners, people.
Get thee to Teddy Babes, is what I have to say.
I don’t even understand what the big hoopla about them is. I must’ve missed part of my socialization or something. I… guess it’s okay to have incredibly arbitrary and narrow standards, as long as you don’t bitch or give people crap for not personifying them?
@guffaw-ferrets:
WTF? Configuration? Call me iggerant but I’d say “labia shaped” to that one. As for asking about pubic hair maintenance - well, that’d be a dealbreaker even if the configuration one wasn’t.
LOL if drinking tea in the garden counts as an escapade!
Out of body experiences or (shudder) astral travel* probably describe it as well as anything. It’s not dreaming, not remotely connected to images created by the mind; it’s living at home on the spirit plane (heaven, whatever) with my family there - husband, in-laws and furrinati. Mostly furrinati.
History doesn’t come into it much; yes, my family are mostly much, much older than me (which gives much hilarity to my stepsons) but they’re not stuck in their lives of four centuries ago; they’ve been alive and growing all that time, and it’s the now they’re living.
*Shudder ‘cos I can’t abide all the New Agey stuff that goes with that term, and my domestic life over There has stuff all to do with it. We live a very quiet life, and the main difference is that we can do stuff with the mind, if we want, instead of having to do it physically. Mostly we do things physically (cooking, making stuff) because we enjoy it; we’re both into craft things and always have been.
(Hope that didn’t read like a lecture! It wasn’t meant that way at all.)
I’d want to ask ‘em “How much time do you expect to spend looking at genitals vs looking at faces? I’m thinking really boring company here.”
But surely a bunch of ferrets in a suit so overcome with mirth and joy that they guffaw would feel right at home anywhere? Only a fair nest of foul cravens could not let an amalgamation of creatures so stylishly dressed into their virtual homes!
—
Seriously though, it’s an interesting and somewhat disconcerting change. I can’t say I’m surprised - because when I say it out loud to myself it fits very well with all the other random little physical tidbits I’ve heard people say over the years. Must be tall, must be short, must have freckles, must wear glasses, must possess a B cup, must have a six pack, must have a perfectly symmetrical labia, must have a neat moustache, must only possess 192938 hairs on the entirety of body (Amount will be tracked).
I wonder. If the proliferation of online dating convinces you that there’s literally millions and billions of potential partners to choose from, and romantic tales and porn convince you of the idea that they must look in a certain, very specific way - not just a type like “redhead” or “athlete” or “librarian”, is that the main reason I see occasionally strange requests for those of a carnal bent?
I’m not saying you can’t have standards. I know I like what I happen to like (Which has so far, admittedly, been whatever I happened to like at the time with no common denominators I can perceive, I I I I I, self reference), but sometimes it really just seems strange.
… So it just the easy availability of the thought that Other People Sometimes Look Like That that leads someone down this oddly specific path of preferences? Or am I missing something? Because trying to imagine breaking up with someone because their labia isn’t neat enough or their nails are slightly too long just makes my head hurt
I mean, I am really picky about looks. I won’t date anyone who I don’t find attractive, and my standards are arbitrary and very specific. But…genitals, people. How much time do you really spend looking at them? Surely function is more important than form here? Not to mention the rudeness of implying that genitals that don’t look the way you prefer are icky in a public forum.
I normally don’t have sex dreams, mine are just plain weird. Many times I experience-or think I experience-”identity shifts” where I am not the same character for the length of the dream-like, I shift between myself and a non-me character, or two non-me characters, and sometimes I can only tell because I’m male in my dreams. (I’m a cis woman, so this is not based on desires or previous experience.)
I think I was male for part of last night’s dream, which involved running from a volcano (I often end up running from something), nuns, kittens, and my grandmother, who died several years ago.
I’ve also had dreams where part of the time I’m Miles Vorkosigan, fighting vampires with my sister (my sister, not Miles’ sister. He doesn’t have a sister).
I have dreams where random people who don’t belong there show up too. I was once dreaming about a trip I went on with Mr C and my cousin, who he’s never met, showed up.
Sometimes I have rage dreams, where I just let it rip on someone who has pissed me off in the dream, I think because I never get a chance to do that in real life. I prefer to avoid conflict. It feels really good in the dreams. I did it to George W. Bush once, though often it isn’t a real person or based on anything that has actually happened to me.
I’ve had dreams years ago where I met famous people - Peter Sellers, Michael Schumacher for instance - and the occasional fictional character, like Lord Foppington. I’ve dreamt of being other people plenty of times, but they’re all male characters of my own. A lot of my dreams take place in some variation on the house I lived in longest as a child (we moved house a lot when I was little), the one place I had some feeling of being home, on this side of the veil. The two places since have just been houses we’ve lived in. “Not belonging here” is a frequent theme or feeling in my dreams, all the stronger now I spend my nights somewhere I am totally at home even though I’m currently just visiting.
(The famous people dreams are almost uniformly frivolous, I might add.)
In “Blink” Malcolm Gladwell talks about a study done on people using a speed dating thing. According to that study (and possibly others, can’t be arsed to look), people aren’t necessarily attracted to the types of things they think they are.
That is, in the study, people filled out questionnaires about what they find attractive in the target gender. Then they had a speed dating event. After the event, they filled out the same questionnaire, and then again a few weeks (I think) later.
What they found was that, if a person was attracted to somebody at the event, they would change their answers on the questionnaire to match the person they were attracted to. And then, if nothing came of the relationship, a few weeks (or months, can’t remember) later, their answers would go back to their default.
Heh - that just reminded me of the episode of New Tricks where Sandra Pullman’s speed dating. Mostly she doesn’t say she’s police officer; she says she works in government. Then she hits one guy who’s a total bore/skeeve (I forget which) and says flatly “I’m a cop.” He disappears pronto.
Thinking about speed dating almost had me freezing up, then. Having to come up with something to say to a man who’s a total stranger, and do it repeatedly - gawd, I couldn’t do it even if I was dead eager to find someone.
RE: Unimaginative
people aren’t necessarily attracted to the types of things they think they are.
Ha! I learned that the hard way. Had you squeezed an answer out of me, I would’ve probably figured on some smart little geek boy that I could emotionally dominate so I wouldn’t have to get fucked too often. It didn’t occur to me I’d get much more of a choice then that. (Back then, it was my sister picking the partners, and I just accepted rape as part of life.) I figured best case scenario, it’d be someone I could tolerate.
Instead I got a big strapping jock guy from Mississippi who didn’t know Street Fighter from Mortal Kombat, never went to college, and could sweet-talk his way into any customer service job on earth. Oh, and he was actually NICE to me.
Yup, never would’ve planned that one out. But I’ll happily take him over my earlier, fatalistic “plans” any day.
I’m lucky - the physical type was sort of pre-set for obvious reasons, so I never had to look around or get nasty surprises. On the contrary, the surprise with Mr Type was all “I had no idea it could a) happen and b) be so happy!”
LBT - ’tis a terrible thing when one’s gay is on the fritz. It always seems to happen out of warranty, too.
Seconding every “Wtf?” and “How is that even polite?” sentiment from everyone above.
Along those lines, I do think it’s actually okay if, say, penises trigger your sexual-trauma responses and you’re afraid of them, to prefer that your sex partners don’t have/use such body parts. Basically, if someone really strongly resembles someone who has hurt you in a very bad way and you can’t get over the instinctive shudder you have whenever you look at them, you would prefer not to get into an intimate situation with such a person no matter how nice they are. All part of attraction vs non-attraction and whatnot. But you should probably bring that up in private, and as politely as possible, not … like, on your dating profile?
Plus, I personally do not see how “I find your uneven labia majora to be triggering” could even be a thing, unless it was in conjunction with the rest of the person? Since labia are not really instruments used in assaults, they’re just kinda there? I don’t know though, again, I feel safe chalking it all up to cultural forces and enforced beauty standards.
kittehserf — no, that didn’t seem lecturey at all! It’s fascinating. No two people’s spirit-space is the same, so it’s always interesting for me to read about someone else’s experiences.
The bit about history, and about changing over time, makes a lot of sense. And it clears it up for me a little: I was imagining an element of time travel, but now I think I understand better.
“one’s gay is on the fritz” LOL omg! That’s hilarious! I may start using some iteration of that …
Oh, and PS: Fibi: you would think that, but we are actually very particular. If there are no packing peanuts in a particular place, we are turning right around and going home.
Also we smell kind of … well … strongly musky. It’s not everyone’s thing, and we understand.
RE: Kittehserf
Man, my gay must’ve been a really short-run model. I think it was the fucking Sega Dreamcast of gays-not only did it fail spectacularly, it was hastily removed from all pop culture zeitgeist and never mentioned again.
Our headspace isn’t anything but what’s between our ears, but it’s… incredibly boring. Little tiny house made of adobe-domes. (Adombes?) Everything else just formless, shapeless black/brown Void that sometimes tries to anticipate your desires and mold itself to your will.
I suppose to most people that’d be kind of creepy, but it’s friendly Void, even if it’s dumb as a sack of hammers.
Yeah, “I don’t find cocks/labia sexually appealing” is a perfectly reasonable thing to feel/specify. It’s when that turns into “I refuse to even consider you if your labia aren’t perfectly symmetrical and of the exact skintone illustrated in this handy link/if your penis not cut/uncut/exactly 7.2 inches in length” that you’ve gone from a person with a preference to being a person with neither manners nor good sense.
RE: guffaw-ferrets
Since labia are not really instruments used in assaults, they’re just kinda there?
I’m sure they can be. Despite my own rape history, I rather dislike the trope that penises can be scary rape-sticks but vulvas have no fear component to them whatsoever. I’m sure if I’d been raped by someone with that equipment, I’d be petrified of it too.
(Yes, gay man who took years to move past terrors of dick. God must’ve really slapped his knee over that one.)
I keep wanting to make a joke about someone called Fritz with that, but I think I’d better not go there!
“Plus, I personally do not see how “I find your uneven labia majora to be triggering” could even be a thing,”
First there was Pube Terror
Then there was (dramatic chord)
ASYMMETRICAL PUBE TERROR
Yeah, no time travel involved, in the sense of going back in time. It’s just spending the night at his place. There is a touch of the timey-wimey about it, ‘cos we seem to fit a day and night into the seven hours odd I spend asleep here (once it was a whole week, which we spent on a holiday in Venice - whoot! New music by Vivaldi!).
It was a major lightbulb moment for me when I realised I was thinking, on this side of the veil, of Louis’s family in terms of how they were then, and failing to allow that they’d changed as much as he has. My attitudes here were way out of date, and a bit hurtful to my elder stepson, for instance. The same thing applied as I’d learned about Louis: no good judging him as he is now by what he was like then. His forty-one earthly years are only the first tenth of his life, and who’d judge a forty-year-old by what they were like at four? Took me way too long to work that out.
@Wordsp1nner: Have you read Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance yet? We loved it.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE Lois McMaster Bujold. I haven’t read Cryoburn yet, though. I started when I was in the middle of a week-long conference, judged I didn’t have enough time to finish it before 4 am before a 6 am wake-up call and flipped to the end. I haven’t had the courage to go back and read the whole thing; I just know it’s going to stomp all over my heart.
CassandraSays — yes, exactly! Well-stated.
LBT — true, but I guess the reason I’ve always found penises to be terrorsticks is … (TW) they can get you pregnant/physically hurt you worse. I won’t tell you how I know this, but you can probably guess.
Jedi Survivor Fistbump. Freshly baked e-cake that says “I’m Sorry About Your Trauma.” Because I am, and there is no really great way to convey that over internets.
Thread — yeah, I guess what I was trying to say is, I can understand “I’m so sorry, I have trauma, (I like you as a person but) we can’t bump bits”, … I can’t understand “ew that’s gross, your body doesn’t look like the artificially constructed standard I fap to in my head.”
So if there ever was a person who was like “I can’t handle super-dangly ladyparts because it reminds me of something truly awful (and not just like, ‘one time I saw a real live naked girl and it was terrifying, she looked nothing like porn’)”, I would obviously understand that. Most people who state such a preference, though, much less publicly, do not seem to be coming from such a place.
Excuse me: “ladyparts or whatever you want to call them.”
kittehserf — that’s very interesting! Do you ever wonder what you will be like 10 times the length of your life from now, or is it like a Pratchett concept of time (wherein all time exists at the same time in kind of a spiral shape)?
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
@Unimaginative: I made myself read the whole of Cryoburn, and loved it. It took all of my willpower on the last page not to jump to that last, terrifying sentence.
The portion of the epilogue devoted to Gregor is like a punch to the feels.
But before that, the book is a wonderful, Miles-filled romp.
I want more Ekaterin, though, dammit. Komarr and A Civil Campaign are my favoritest.
Re: penis size. I used to do phone sex (at a call centre!) and it was so, so common for male callers (mostly younger guys, not always) to tell me they had a 12 inch dick*. I mean, 12 inches. That’s an assorted sub, fer chrissakes. I would then kill their fantasy by telling them it was too big (in a nice way). I honestly felt bad about reinforcing their ideas about penis size - did not want to act like a foot-long was better than whatever they actually had. It is not easy to educate while phone ho-ing, but I gave it a go whenever I could.
Re: dreams - I don’t have lucid dreams; sometimes I am aware I’m dreaming, but I’m not sure that’s the same thing? I do, however, have full-on erotic dreams that go all the way, have had since I was about 10. Busband never has though, which surprised me bc at the time I thought all guys did (I since learned that nope, they don’t). I used to have some really serious issues/trauma regarding sex, so being so free in dreams always surprised me - maybe I felt safer there?
* It was also, sadly, not uncommon for a male caller to orgasm, and then yell at me/insult me/threaten to kill me. On a lighter note, it was also not uncommon for male callers to be simultaneously watching WWF wrestling while we, um, chatted.
YES! MOAR Ekaterin. I don’t understand why so many people say Bujold “writes like a man”, because she handles the romantic elements so extremely well, and men, in general, don’t.
Her books are always either punching me in the feels, or cuddling them with (non-allergic) kitteny fluffiness. I loves it!
Well … except the kitten tree.
@guffaw-ferrets:
MRAs and MGTOW in a nutshell.
I haven’t thought much about what I’ll be like that far ahead! Kind of mind-boggling, isn’t it? It could be I won’t be hugely different. I don’t have trauma and a seriously crap earthly life to heal and leave behind as Louis did, and he’s … it’s hard to say “still recognisable” because in so many ways he isn’t. “Recognisably himself if one can imagine a person marked by a lot of sorrow and anger completely free of it, and happy” is all I can think of, awkward though it is.
Time as I experience it, or at least as the memories filter through to my consciousness here, seems to be linear, though Louis once memorably said in a journal entry “Time is a tangled skein, which I do not propose to try unravelling.” He said later the skein’s controlled by a CAT, which everything is.*
*Except when it’s controlled by ferrets, fish, dogs, rabbits …
Um, yes. Except that.
@Kitteh I’ve wanted to ask you what it was like, but wasn’t sure how to ask without maybe sounding impolite or something. I’m glad Louis is happy - I don’t know a ton about him but I can imagine his earthly life was complicated, to say the least!
Sorry.
Did you ever figure out why? Generalized misogynistic rage directed at what they see as a woman who can’t fight back? A bad attitude to sex workers specifically? Some sort of weird guilt thing?
RE: guffaw-ferrets
I’m sorry. You have my sympathies.
RE: Tracy
It was also, sadly, not uncommon for a male caller to orgasm, and then yell at me/insult me/threaten to kill me.
WTF? What assholes.
There are actually a lot of deeply disturbing concepts in Bujold’s various universes. But they’re always presented as disturbing, or presented so as to be disturbing, even if they’re not to the characters.
Like, in some books, bad shit is just bad shit (see Piers Anthony, and thanks to LBT for pointing that out). In Bujold’s books, bad shit is there to make you realize, “Holy shit, that shit is bad!” And she’s subtle and elegant about it. See, for example, the empire of Cetaganda. And the creation, obsolescence, and subsequent emancipation of the Quaddies. And I could go on and on and ON about Ethan of Athos, an entire planet founded by MGTOWs, and yet is sympathetic and kind of wonderful.
I often say, if I could write only half as well as she does, I’d still be a pretty good writer.
Tracy, thank you! Feel free to ask anything, it’s not impolite. (Ha, try and shut me up on the subject.)
Complicated’s the word. Imagine being born to do a job, inheriting it when you’re eight, and coming to hate it, but not being able to abdicate because your heir was a total dipshit who’d've undone all your work and executed your best minister inside a year. Hmm, I think I just channelled George V then - “When I’m gone the boy [Edward VIII] will ruin himself within a year.”
kitteh — controlled by a CAT/furrinati, eh?? That explains everything.
Yup. Even them as is hundreds of years old acknowlege the furry troof.
Speaking of writing, I’m within a hair’s breadth of finishing my first novel. Like, I just have to write the big climax, and then I’m done the “vomit it forth” phase. I just have to rearrange things, fill in the holes, scrape off the barnacles, and I’ll have something resembling a coherent story. This is awesomely exciting to me, because I’ve never actually finished one of the many novels I’ve started writing.
So, cool. Almost done.
And I’ve utterly chickened out. I haven’t even looked at it since Sunday. I’m having serious anxiety over finishing my novel. WTF?
I believe this particular comic is appropriate for this thread:
Questionable Content #1171
You got further than I did, Unimaginative. I chickened out of doing Louis’s and my memoirs over a year ago, and nowhere near that far into them.
RE: Unimaginative
Congratulations! I FINALLY, after a week of fighting with formatting (four computers, four file formats, five programs) got one of my stories printed up and mailed off my orders. (Including one to Argenti! You should be getting it soon.) I’m excited too!
Fear not. You’re not done, it’s then merely on to the editing!
@LBT Woohoo! Congratulations!
*is very excited!*
And a little terrified. Because that seems an appropriate reaction to most things M.D. is involved it.
Congrats, LBT!
RE: Argenti
Now, now, weren’t you just saying not long ago that M.D. made his life better?
Oh, and speaking of which: I got a big anon donation earlier this week, so I’m doing free writing for one of my series! Everyone’s welcome to take a crack at the poll to see who wins it. (If you don’t have an LJ, just leave an anon comment. They’re all screened.)
Better is relative! She prevented him from further pickling his liver via activities requiring a blunt object with which to whack death beetles. So yes, better than he would’ve been, still a bit terrifying!
Of course, that was before I found that THING last night. Those should not exist.
All the warnings! Giant. Fucking. Grub.
Holy behemoths, Batman!
Unimaginative & LBT, Yonkers, youse guyz are amazing.
(Seriously, when I was closest to finishing my thesis is exactly when I had the hardest time forcing myself to work on it. I know your pain, Unimaginative!)
I still think they’re cute. Then again, I used to be friends with an entomologist.
@ Falconer-Yes, I’ve read Captain Volpatril’s Alliance and Cryoburn . I went on a Bujold kick a few months back.
Komarr is definitely my favorite book, though I like Alliance too. I <3 Ekaterine, and I think it did a very good job of portraying emotional abuse.
I thought it did too, as someone who’s never been abused.
The scene where they give Ekaterin fast-penta and she completely relaxes is just heartbreaking.
And then the bad guys kidnap the wrong woman. Glee!
I guess I don’t have any experience either, but it seemed pretty real, and I thought Bujold portrayed how patriarchy and socialization play into taking abuse, too.
I have to quibble slightly-the bad guys kidnap the wrong women, plural.
I’m sorry, I forgot about the other woman.
Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance is a close runner-up to my favorite Vorkosigan books, though.
When I got to the bit about ImpSec HQ I was howling. Beloved had finished it a couple days before and admitted that she’d been waiting with glee to see my reaction.
@CassandraSays
No clue. Also, it only ever happened with US callers (we had callers from all over the world), so… not sure what that means. I speculated that for some of them it was shame; for others I think it was general hatred of women (or hatred of a certain type of woman).
Trigger warning - violence
One of the callers I’ll never forget was the guy who was perfectly fine the entire time, then after he was finished told me he was going to find me, disembowel me and strangle me with my intestines. I don’t get shaken up often, and that shook me. It was completely out of the blue. It frightened me that this person had sex and extreme (and very specific) violence connected in their mind, and all I could think about was the people (women especially) that may be in his life, and how he treated them, and were they in danger, and how I could do NOTHING about it.
What also disturbed me were the guys (again mostly from the US) who were downright rude. Not that I’d expect reciprocation so much during phone sex (I mean, you’re calling a service), but so, so many guys would just command me to ‘start moaning’ or ‘start screaming’ and that’s all they wanted or said, and they said it in a very stern, authoritarian way - in an objectifying way. It stood in stark contrast to other men who would speak with me like I was an actual person (and plenty did).
@Kitteh
Yikes - sounds awful! I do love reading about/watching docs/films about how these monarchies worked, bc it blows my mind people ever lived like that. I can’t imagine dealing with it, all the politicking, treachery, general weirdness. I always thought that if I were magically transported back in time to that sort of situation, I’d take to the woods and live as some wild forest woman (in reality I’d hide under a bed and cry the whole time).
I suppose now he can just relax and enjoy himself - does he ever run into anyone from his past? Does it work like that?
RE: Tracy
D: Eeyuch! I’ve had some pretty awful customers over time, but at least none ever threatened me with violent dismemberment, Jesus.
And I would never want to be monarchy. Somehow, having the bankroll of Croesus doesn’t seem worth the rigidity and people constantly trying to manipulate you. At least all I have to worry about is housing.
@LBT yeah, it was a weird job! At least it wasn’t face to face.
Tracy - bloody hell! I can’t think of much else to say about those guys.
Louis and I don’t exactly have a social circle these days, lol. We see his father and stepmother Kathy (who’s a Londoner who passed over in the 1970s - her face reminds me a little of Queen Latifah. She’s Henri’s soulmate like I’m Louis’s) fairly often. Louis described how wonderful it was when he passed over and his father was there to greet him in our unfinished book.
We see his sons quite often, too - Louis fils is still with Françoise (Mme de Maintenon) and Philippe is with André (his name’s Andrew, he’s Scots, but everyone in the family uses the French version). They got together after Philippe passed; André’s a little older than he, I think, though they never met on the earthly plane. We see his mother occasionally; I’ve met his father’s first wife, Marguerite, once that I remember, and we’ve met Louis’s first wife and his siblings a few times, but we don’t socialise with ‘em as such. There’s no ill-feeling any more.
Just reminded me of something funny - I had a psychic reading done once (yeah, I know, don’t laugh) and Philippe and André turned up. I had no idea they’d do so and didn’t even know André’s name at this point; this happened years ago. The reader described Philippe - young, very long black hair, and LOUD - and André sort of pulling his arm and hanging back, slightly embarrassed. Perfect description of those two. They’ve popped in to say while Louis and I are out on this side of the veil more often than any others in the family. I really like Philippe.