>Imaginary Feminism
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| An Imaginary Feminist in action. |
There’s a great post up on The Pervocracy inspired by, well, some of the more lovable characters who frequent the comments section on this little blog – our resident antifeminists. As Holly notes, the feminists posting here devote much of their time (naturally enough) to arguing for feminism, while the MRA types, by contrast, tend to argue against an imaginary enemy that only bears a vague passing resemblance to actual feminism. Holly sets forth the tenets of this imaginary feminism, or IF, as she’s managed to glean them from the comments by MRA types here.
IF, she notes, is monolithic:
Anything said by anyone calling themselves a feminist can be assumed to be true of anyone else calling themselves a feminist. Some random thing Andrea Dworkin said in 1973 is tattooed on all IF’s chests backward so they can read it in the mirror. All IFs simultaneously subscribe to the beliefs of Valerie Solanas, Catharine McKinnon, Betty Dodson, Phyllis Schlafly, Twisty Faster, and that person who wrote those weird articles about Firefly.
Imaginary Feminists have no real grievances, are eager to take rights away from men, love shaming men, and are simultaneously sex-hating puritans and sex-obsessed sluts.
In other words, they are dastardly creatures indeed. If they really existed, I would oppose them too.
The post is hilarious and spot-on in its critiques. Well worth reading.
EDIT: Link fixed.
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Posted on April 15, 2011, in antifeminism, feminism, MGTOW, MRA, oppressed men, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 170 Comments.
>My point was that certain terms can stop dialogueThe only person stopping dialogue here is you, T4T, through your continuous refusal to use the common definition of several words that are key to understanding the entire conversation. You are the only one here with "baggage" around the word "patriarchy" or, for that matter, "feminism." It has been explained to you over and over again. Over and over again, you decline to absorb the information, and pretend to be a newbie who has NO FECKIN' IDEA what all this COMPLIMACATED feminism stuff is! It's not cute, and it's transparent. You are not as stupid as you make yourself out to be.
>Lady VicCertain jokes make certain people laugh, you didnt laugh at mine, my wife did. I guess she's not reasonable. See ya……….
>Don't forget to stick the flounce, you lying troll.
>Is 'my wife' the new 'my best friend is black'?
>Sounds like it Ginmar.
>David: Ah, my apologies then. I assumed since my post initially showed up and then disappeared, that it'd been deleted, as per the FAQ.SallyStrange, ginmar, cynickal and the rest of the remedial class: I see you've faithfully memorized the term "flounce" as set forth in the book of feminist shaming language as a way to declare victory whenever your target decides to leave for whatever reason. Now that you've finished high-fiving each other over your cleverness at parroting this well-worn term, here's another one: Backbiting. It means taking a parting shot at someone who's leaving, or already left the discussion, safe in the knowledge that they're gone and you've got your buddies at your back. Yeah, it's pretty slimy and cowardly, but then again, no less than expected from you. Cheers.
>I hate that line so very, very much. Either you don't understand the meaning of the word 'respect', or you enjoy being an ass to strangers.If you respect someone's opinion, if you care what they think about you… yeah, sure, that should be earned.But basic respect should be free to everyone, whether you know them or not, or even whether you like them or not. Basic respect means giving someone space to do their own thing (as long as they aren't tromping on someone else's space). It means giving someone the benefit of the doubt that they're a reasonable person. It means not crowding someone on the escalator or cutting someone off in traffic. It means recognizing that someone, even someone you don't know, is still a person with dignity and deserves to be treated that way. You misunderstood what I meant to say, or maybe I didn't say it clearly enough. Of course I don't mean I'm going to act like a misanthropic asshole towards strangers because they haven't earned my respect. There should be a 'baseline' level of regard for all people, common courtesy or the benefit of the doubt, as you say. But when I said respect I meant something more than that, like approval and admiration of that person. So basically I agree with you there.
>How does this "shaming language" thing work, Ion? Are you saying that T4T is NOT a dishonest troll? Do you think he should be PROUD of making statements about himself that aren't true-for instance, his repeated claims that he doesn't understand the meaning of the word "patriarchy," and that he thinks that feminists should abandon the word due to the "baggage" associated with it mysterious, unnamed third parties? If a commenter reveals that he is not arguing in good faith, should we refrain from calling him out about it? If he truly has nothing to be ashamed about, then why should a few pixels on a screen make any difference to his emotional state? Personally, I think he is a troll-that is, he makes statements he doesn't fully agree with in order to rile people up-therefore, it's no great loss if he does leave Manboobz permanently. Of course, I'd also be quite shocked if he does stick the flounce. Also, when did "flounce" become part of the "feminist dictionary" and where can I get one of these dictionaries?
>I wasn't paying attention to T4T's posts, so no comment. All I saw was he made a little joke and everyone jumped on him like a pack of angry baboons screaming and flinging feces, your usual MO really. I was referring to the 'flounce' comments directed at myself when I said I was leaving, after mistakenly thinking David had deleted my post.As for the feminist dictionary, it's quite a phenomenon. Did you know that virtually every feminist blogger and commenter out there uses basically the same small vocabulary of slang terms, insults and put-downs? It's like there was a big meeting somewhere and everyone settled on these as "ok, these are the insults we're gonna use" (actually, more likely some feminist with half an ounce of wit made them up and the rest of the herd adopted them because it's easier than being smart or creative on your own).A man who has any complaint or issue is "whining", or "whinging" if you're Australian; also acceptable is replying "waaah!" to imply that your target is a crybaby. Someone who leaves the conversation - whether out of boredom, disgust, or any other reason - is "flouncing"; this is a reason to smugly declare victory. Someone who disagrees with the official party line is, naturally, a troll or a misogynist - or both. Also popular are variations on "douche": so far I've seen douchebag, douchenozzle, and douchecanoe, which is just weird. Then there are small penis jokes, references to bingo, the "oppression olympics", and saying "teh menz" and "teh wimminz" which honestly just makes you sound like a freaking lolcat. Smug, sarcastic tone is mandatory. Bonus points if you miss your opponent's gist entirely and just throw a few insults randomly selected from the pile above back as a reply - ginmar and yourself are quite the masters at this. And that's about it. I have just described 99% of feminist bloggers and blog-commenters out there.Further reading here: http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/
>If someone flounces off, and someone else points this out, is it shaming language? Is a flounce shameful behavior to begin with?And what if someone has done something shameful? Is calling them on it shaming?
>Where I come from, calling a spade a spade makes you a straight shooter but MRAs apparently expect to me sucked up to twenty four/seven and when they don't get it they threaten to hold their breath till they turn blue. Sadly, they never do it. Ion's hoping we forget about his flounce. I say we bring it up till he actually does it.
>If someone flounces off, and someone else points this out, is it shaming language? Is a flounce shameful behavior to begin with?It's just a term that is, in my observation, extremely overused on feminist blogs. To the point where it's used to refer to pretty much anyone leaving the conversation for any reason. It's shaming language because it implies that the person is "running away" after "being defeated", which could be sometimes, but hardly always, the case.And what if someone has done something shameful? Is calling them on it shaming?Depends on what you and others consider shameful. Feminists talk a lot about "slut-shaming", for example, the idea being that it's wrong. Yet someone can say "I agree with slut-shaming, because being a slut is shameful." It's the same thing. Shaming language is also used to ascribe motives and ideological positions to the target which might not actually be the truth, in which case it's just a straw man tactic.I actually had a longer post up a while ago but it seems the spam filter ate it again. Hopefully it'll choke on it and bring it back up sometime.
>No. You cannot compare sexism to whatever it is men think they're suffering from. Why aren't you gone yet? YOu flounced, now follow through.
>Specifically, it's generally because the poster in question feels the need to ANNOUNCE PUBLICLY to all other posters in the forum AS IF WE CARE that they are LEAVING RIGHT NOW because of what they're saying not being accepted as general truth. And then they come back in a couple of posts later to point out AGAIN SOME MORE that they're leaving. That's why people generally laugh and ask if they're going to stick the flounce, because they never do. See Ion above. I'm not talking about this at all, anymore! Except that I'll come back to talk about it some more. And also insult people.Brilliant minds.
>amandajane5 (I fear to ask what happened to the first 4 of you), hear that whooshing sound? That's my point flying right over your head. I said I was leaving because I thought David had deleted one my posts, thus confirming that he was no different from most feminist bloggers. Turns out this wasn't the case, so I stayed. Cue the "flounce lolol" comments from the halfwitted masses. Honestly, it's about as witty and original as saying 'don't let the door hit you on the way out'. A simple "hey, weren't you leaving?" would have been enough, but then I guess they wouldn't have had the chance to use their beloved f-word.
>No it was not over her head Ion-you really did give everyone the impression you were running away like a little kid. See, I did not use the term you find so upsetting that you must use it constantly and complain about us using it constantly (which was only once in this thread until you objected to it, claiming, erroneously it is a frequent feminist term.)
>The whole flouncing thing does sound like a kid threatening to run away from home."OMG! You guys are horrible, you won't let me watch my Epic Super Ultra Mega Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bomb Ultimate Hero Hour, I'm gonna run away AND NEVER COME BACK! See, I'm packing up my bags right now! Got all my action figures right here! You'll never see me again, cross my heart and hope to die!"And then they're back in time for lunch, maybe dinner if they were really serious.
>But slut-shaming *is* wrong. Sex is private and personal, so it's no one else's damn business who a woman does or does not have sex with. Slut-shaming is an attempt to control women and their bodies. There is nothing immoral about enjoying consensual sex, or talking about enjoying consensual sex. Another problem with slut-shaming is that the goalposts are always moving. There's no magic number for a woman to know when she's had more than the socially acceptable number of partners. It shifts and changes depending on who she is and who is accusing her. And, of course, the double standard - for the exact same sexual act, the male partner is likelier to be able to brag about it, while the female partner is expected to be demure, if not ashamed. That's why feminists have a problem with shaming language, because society says it's shameful for women to talk too loudly about liking sex. Having sex, and liking it, is not the same thing as being deceitful, bigoted or immature. The latter are things which one should rightly be ashamed of, the former is not.
>I wasn't really debating the merits of slut-shaming (for what it's worth, I don't agree with it - I'd rather have a world where women are into sex than one where they're not). I was just using it as an example to answer your question about whether it's shaming to call someone out on doing something shameful. Like I said, depends on who considers what shameful, and it's often loaded anyway. The shamer attempts to make the target feel they did something wrong, when objectively this might not be the case. I find it's best to not worry about it too much either way.
>I see you guys have had quite the discussion since I departed. Though I didnt say I wasnt coming back. Interestingly enough, I learned a new word, could someone explain it how it is being used? If I was to "flounce", wouldnt you have to actually see me doing it?
>Google it, Tit for Tat, I think most of the people here are tired of explaining shit to you.
>I think the discussion of flouncing has gotten a little boring, so I'm going to try to derail things here:Last night I had a dream that featured a tiny bunny whose right eye (well, the iris) was in the shape of a swastika. (Sort of like one of those fucked-up contact lenses Marilyn Manson likes to wear; perhaps not coincidentally Mr. Manson made a guest appearance on a show I saw last night.) What does this mean?
>I think it means that you are worried about the reemergence of some kind of unhappy or negative thing returning to your life. Since most Americans are raised (and this is an assumption on my part that you are American) to think that Nazis were and are the worst things ever, the fertility symbol and the hate symbol combined show that your subconscious mind thinks something really bad is going to happen again or happen period.Dream DictionaryIf you entered the WaPo Peep contest, it could mean that you are worried you will not win because you forgot to include Justin Bieber.
>Hmm. I'm not a big fan of dream dictionaries but you may be on to something. In the dream there were lots of these little animals and they somehow managed to sort of combine and turn into evil people who were attacking me. That kind of fits with your interpretation.
>Well, did you have chilies and watch South Park's Woodland Critter Christmas? Because your brain could have been just processing that episode and the chilies made you think you were Stan.
>Ah, you were watching TV before bed. My mother likes to blame every bizarre dream on watching TV or playing video games before bed. We could go with that one too…Or it could just be that it is near easter and these comment sections often are huge Godwin fests. It's like the zombie with sharingan dream I had last week, it doesn't have to make sense (how do you beat a zombie that has a sharingan-short answer, you don't-and I got eaten as six or seven different people before I woke up).
>Why yes, Ion, you big hulky genius of a man, having an internet pseudonym with a number on the end is an endlessly fascinating and totally rare concept. It's almost like…I had to pick a number because my nym was taken already. SHOCK!!Also, just because I know it pisses you off, I'm going to call you a flouncer who can't stick the flounce again. Why protest? Is it because it's a word that's generally used as feminine? And feminine is bad somehow or someway because of cunts, vaginas, and twats? Make a point or don't, stay or don't, but it's a gorram internet forum and no one is ever going to miss you if you're gone.
>:: puts on her Glenn Beck Conspiracy Hat ::Well, we all know what the swastika means. And bunnies are a symbol of Easter, and Easter is coming up, a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus, who was killed by the Jews, who celebrate Passover the same time Christians celebrate Easter. COINCIDIENCE? I think NOT! Because we all know what the swastika means when you bring up Jews! The question is, David… why are you dreaming of Nazi bunnies? Why do you hate the Jews? Did you know that ham is eaten on Easter because it flies in the face of the rules for kosher food? Your dream is obviously the deep expression of an Easter-based anti-Semitism.:: takes off the Glenn Beck Conspiracy Hat ::Man, that thing stinks. *Disclaimer: Not intended to be factual statements.
>*groan* And that is MY state's junior senator.
>Ion, you big hulky genius of a manWhy thank you, I am a genius though I'm working on the 'hulky' part. Protein shakes and all that. Also, I can't take someone seriously who steals words from Firefly. You might as well have called me a Muggle, ffs. Other than that, when you're finished pounding the straw man, I'll be over here.David: Dreams are weird. I recently had a nightmare that I got into a small elevator and these three huge, fat guys got in after me. We were so packed in, I couldn't move or breathe. And I thought "what if the elevator gets stuck between floors like this?" I'm a bit claustrophobic so it was unpleasant, let me tell you. I'd have rather dreamed of a nazi bunny any day.