Open Thread for Personal Stuff
Hugs for everyone who wants them.
I know a lot of Man Boobz regulars have been dealing with a lot of rough stuff lately, so I’m opening this thread up to provide a (relatively) safe space to discuss them. No trolls allowed; any trolls who post here will be put on moderation and possibly banned. (Please notify me by email (my last name at well dot com) if there are inaproppriate comments; I get behind in reading comments here.)
Posted on May 6, 2013, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 279 Comments.
marinerachel - that sounds like the weakest attempt at backpedalling ever. Even worse than your average politician’s efforts.
It was along the lines of “You have no senses of humour” and “The event wasn’t private so I didn’t actually tell them anything” followed by no explanation as to why she felt the need to directly approach Phelps-Roper, tell her about the event and give her dates.
Gawd.
The idea that an atheist (or anyone not a total douchecanoe) would tell the Phelpses anything at all is baffling enough.
I guess cushioning her internalised misogyny is more important than anything else …
I would tell the people at Westboro Baptist the time, or the way to the bus stop. Some people you just don’t associate with.
Wouldn’t. Ugh, need sleep.
I might tell them those things.
But I’d lie.
After crying myself to sleep last night because I felt so stupid and useless, I got offered a job this afternoon. The place is one where I want to work, and the pay is good. I am excited.
@Weeboy
Congratulations! And I hope your depression lessens up* soon.
*mine goes in flares; idk if yours goes like that.
WeeBoy, congratulations on the job offer! That’s great news.
::cheers::
::whistles::
Yay, weeboy! I hope the job is great!
That’s great Weeboy. Cheers.
I don’t think my cat is going to live much longer. She’s 13-14 and she’s pretty sick. She’s been my best friend for so long. She’s been getting thinner and she’s had bathroom problems all day. I don’t know what I’ll do without her.
Is it a kidney problem? If so I nursed my cat through several years of that so I’m happy to offer whatever help I can.
doomkitt3n, what Cassandra said. Are you able to get her to the vet for a checkup? Kidney problems are so common for older cats.
Hints that it might be a kidney problem would be loss of appetite and peeing a lot more than usual (larger quantities, litterbox very wet), as well as weight loss and lethargy.
I’m assuming that this is the open thread right? If so, I feel like doing something on behalf of Manboobz by debunking the Warren Farrell lecture held at University of Toronto on November 16th because it’s honestly one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.
Here’s the video by the way, for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6w1S8yrFz4 (LOL it’s like 2.5 hours long)
I will present to you a list of his arguments that I can think of, and my response to each of them:
1) There are environmental pollutants in the water that mimic estrogen
My response: This is not a men’s right issue at all, and I think it’s funny that he singles out estrogen and say that it’s “the main toxin” while ignoring plenty of other things like mercury, lead, PCB, arsenic, etc. And estrogen does not just negatively affect men - they affect women as well.
2) Father’s rights blah blah blah (took up a good 45 minutes of the talk with this pointless garbage)
My response: Feminists are fighting for father’s rights. Next…
3) One thing I have found is that the main reason why African American children are so oppressed is because they lack a father.
My response: As opposed to systemic racism, poverty, and a whole host of other issues? Sounds like this guy needs a lesson on racism.
4) Sons from single mothers has been found to do girly things like playing with dolls and wearing lipstick.
My response: Really? Where’s the proof? And while we’re at it, how is this a problem?
5) Male disposability theory: imagine you’re a sports star, who suffered from multiple injuries, and a cheerleader says to you “Go go you can do it”
My response: This is a very weird example of the theory. It’s like he’s trying his best to fit in the “women are causing men to be disposable” idea by illustrating a cheerleader (who is not necessarily a female) and a sports star (who is not necessarily a male)
6) Boys are suffering from porn addiction nowadays, and I have found that men tends to be very cheap and women charge more for sex.
My response: No, porn addiction occurs because of male social circles. I couldn’t remember exactly what Farrell said, but it seemed like as if he wants cheaper prostitutes to be the solution. Ugh.
And the last one takes the cake:
7) Mothers are much more easy going than fathers, and this leads to the ADHD crisis nowadays, where boys from single mothers are more likely to suffer from ADHD due to the fact that mothers don’t discipline their children well.
My response: Where to begin? First, this is not only offensive to women, but also to men, and to patients who are experiencing ADHD. Second, where is he getting his study from? Third, ADHD is mostly a genetic disease, with multiple environmental factors that we still do not know yet. Farrell seems to twist these facts around and say that all the problems in this society are due to women.
Good breakdown. I’m amazed he had anything (that 20% you mentioned) that wasn’t stupid, among that lot. He really is disgusting.
Was the 20% that wasn’t absurd “good evening, Toronto!” and an observation about the weather?
@breadmold..
wow, this Farrel guy really make us women out to be so very very powerful, that we are almost god-like in the way we affect EVERYTHING.
Right now I’m paying more attention to the 3 women that were freed from some guy’s basement. I’m thinking those 3 guys who kept these women prisoner for over a decade were possibly MRAs, or something along the lines. The story’s still unfolding, so we shall see.
Those 20% were just the typical MRA stuff like “women can abuse men as well”, basically stuff which I don’t disagree with, but if the MRA’s are saying it, then they must mean it differently.
And Warren Farrell is a date rape apologist. I’m sorry but he is.
It really takes some balls to have the nerves to be a blatant misogynist and say that women who speak with non-verbal “yes’s” is committing date fraud.
My overall view is this: If you are worried that you might be accused of rape after having sex with a drunk stranger, DON’T ask for sex. End of story. Whether or not a few people “enjoy” screwing while being drunk doesn’t change the fact that date rape is still a very common and frequent occurrence.
Farrell seems to imagine women as being a cross between Catwoman and the Patrician from the Pratchett books.
He also never focuses at all on male related issues that truly deserve mentioning. Paternity testing, for instance - not discussed AT ALL in his lecture. Neither is vasectomy.
I have to ask how vasectomy is an issue. It’s something men elect to have performed and, to my knowledge, love the results of. Those who want to make babies or don’t but are so insecure they think shooting blanks makes them less of a man don’t have it. Sounds like everybody wins.
The problem is that it’s so hard to get one, and even if you do, most would tell you that you’re just too young.
Compared to what young women are put through in order to get tubal ligations or hysterectomies, it’s nothing.
It is nothing, but the problem is that it’s so hard to get vasectomies in this society. Here in Toronto, there’s only THREE clinics that perform vasectomies, and before you can get one they have to make sure that you’re over the age of 30, and that you must have at least one child. Fucked up I’d say.
A large part of every Toronto urologist’s practice is performing vasectomies (and they’re not the only practicing physicians performing them.) The guidelines vasectomy clinics adhere to don’t apply to anyone but those clinics.
The reluctance of health care practitioners to provide young people with few or no children with sterilisation procedures is not a men’s issue. It’s a people’s issue and it affects women disproportionately.
“Imagine if someone sends a foreign child into your house and extorts you into caring for that child for 18+ years against your will.”
Irrelevant. That means the person knows from the outset and has no wish to raise the child. You’re comparing that with a situation in which the person has no knowledge that the child isn’t theirs - how else could it be “fraud”? It’d be coercion, a different matter altogether. Are you saying the person loses all the love they had (I hope) for that child when they learn they’re not related?
And the suggestion that it could in any way compare with a terrifying and potentially fatal assault is just mind-boggling.
“Farrell seems to imagine women as being a cross between Catwoman and the Patrician from the Pratchett books.”
If only we were. I’d love to do a Patrician on that lot.
(PS apologies about the paternity fraud comment: wrong thread!)
So the same man who claims to be a champion of the rights and respect of men and boys is arguing that boys shouldn’t be doing “girly things.”
Ok.
And to think that people wonder why I say that most MRAs don’t actually help men and boys in any way, shape, or form.
That’s why as a male I’m offended by these statements that this guy is making.
Well, dolls kind of creep me out, but I like men who play with makeup!
On behalf of emo kids, goths, glam-rock dudes, and theater nerds everywhere I sneer in his general direction.
WeeBoy, congrats on the new gig!
Am worried that I might survive a suicide attempt with diminished faculties. God that scares me so much. Last year a friend whose brother is a retired GP gave me a set of pills that would work for someone my size, but stupidly I let my ex-girlfriend and best friend convince me to try therapy, but she abandoned me halfway through and I got worse again and now I am down to more hands-on means, like short drop hanging, with the attendant worries.
Thanks for going through that video, breadmold.
At least three of his talking-points are all based around the same fallacy-it’s one that is also often used in the SSM debate:
Step 1: Take studies of single parents vs. two-parent homes. These invariably (and, quite logically) note that, once you take income into account, single-parent homes produce a greater degree of troubled children.
Step 2: Take advantage of the fact that most single-parent homes in the U.S. are headed by the mother.
Step 3: Declare that all the problems found in the homes from Step 1 are derived from the lack of a father (rather than the lack of a second parent who can step in when the first is occupied with other crucial tasks, such as paying for rent).
Of course, he also fails to recognize that the disproportionate number of single-parent homes in the African-American community is a ~result~ of endemic racism, rather than a cause. You can’t remove 25% of the men from a community (that’s the odds of an urban African-American going to jail, most likely for a non-violent drug crime that doesn’t get prosecuted when the suspect has less melanin) and expect things to just roll along hunky-dory.
It’s one of the few places where the ‘economic theory’ approach to evaluating these things actually makes sense (because yes, most people do seek out romantic affiliations, and systemic racism in law enforcement has produced an environment where the remaining men have a greater ability to assume that they can walk away and find someone else; women in these decimated communities, on the other hand, rarely have the ability to make that assumption, so are less likely to exercise their ability to walk away). But the MRAs never actually do that, here, because hey, that might mean that the problem was racism, not ‘misandry’, and they can’t acknowledge that, ever.
@freemage, I know. We do have Skepchick and FTB, but any intersectionality in movement atheism gets such an incredible volume of flack (for NO! REASON!) that it’s difficult not to feel overwhelmed and outnumbered. It’s really discouraging.
inurashii: Patheos’s Atheism community may not be as active or as accurate in intersectionality issues, but they are still on the side of diversity. Also, with one major exception, all of the atheist/skeptic cons were pretty quick to adopt sexual harassment guidelines once the issues with the current unofficial system were made public.
That exception, of course was The Amazing Machine, which seems determined to rename itself “The Asshole Magnet”.
Given that this is breadmold, I assume the 20% is probably Farrell saying that paternity fraud is worse than rape.
katz: Yeah, I hadn’t seen breadmold’s breakdown when I replied to him upthread. Sheesh. That first post was actually a decent job of fake-feminism.
RE: shigekuni
I have no idea what the hell is going on, but for the love of god, please call someone. If you’re in the US, the phone number for the emergency psych service is (800) 981-4357. You can do your body serious damage and you need help, more help than the crew here can give you.
Shigekuni, please listen to LBT. There are resources and support out there for you. If you give us a location we can help you find them. I understand being suicidal, have been there myself, but I promise you can pull through it even though it might not seem like it right now.
I just wanted to pop in and say “hi!!” (I’ve been lurking, but haven’t had enough time to comment and then follow through.)
If any of you are a fan of Hyperbole and a Half, Allie will have a new post up tomorrow explaining what’s been going on in her life the last 18 months. Her last post, in 2011, was about her depression so it’s really good to hear from her.
My favorite HaaH post: The Alot is Better Than You at Everything.
(The word “explaining” was meant to go here: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/pre-post-transition-post.html.)
Hi serrana!
(Still getting used to your new nym - lovely but so different!)
Me too, Kittehserf. It’s weird having someone address me with no cuss words involved.
LOL!
Tomorrow I’m heading to San Francisco via public transit. It’ll be the first time ever being in SF by myself. I’m supposed to go there to visit an art museum (Legion of Honors Museum) and complete a project for my art history class. It’s just one of those humanities classes I’m trying to get out of the way, although it’s surprisingly interesting.
Also, if I have extra time, I’ll go check out the The Castro and explore it. ^_^ I’ve always wanted to go there as it’s one of the most LGBT-friendly areas of SF. And I’ll be very pleased if I can find some trans*-friendly clothing store over there. The best thing is that my father is going out of town tomorrow, so he won’t be calling me constantly about where I am and what I’m doing.
Oh, it’s 1:32 AM. That makes it today, then, not tomorrow. >_>
@Aaliyah that’s a great museum! It has a Thinker out front that I enjoy, and it passes my Design of Cities professor’s test for being a place people like to get married. If you make it to Castro St., I recommend walking over the hill to the Noe Valley neighborhood known locally for it’s reputation for having lesbians with kids. 24th St. is the main place to go there, tons of fun little shops, a beautiful bookstore and toy shop (separate places.)
So my head is still hurting, and I’m trying to decide if it’s better to do some exercise or not. I kind of feel like I’ve been lying down too much, but I don’t want to over-do anything.
I lived in SF for a couple of years and love art and architecture, so I have opinions. Another wonderful thing to do is to go to Lands End, nice (steep, like everything in SF) hiking trails, and an unbeatable view of the Golden Gate bridge. You can get there by bus, head for Ft. Myers, and it’s a nice place to take a picnic. It’s also near the Legion of Honor. So is the beach in SF, which is largely only frequented by people who live there, so rarely crowded, and the Cliff House restaurant and the ruins of the baths are also fun places to go.
So much on here. Support for everyone who needs it! *hugs if anyone wants them*
Please don’t kill yourself Shigekuni. Please call a suicide line, and/or talk to us. People do care.
The clothes are awesome Kitteh! ^_^ The hat is great too, I am envious of your skills.
For my open thread comment: I just sent an email to our human evolution and sexuality lecturer about our gender lecture. It was about chromosomal/hormonal sex disorders. The lecturer is a (different) old (60s) white guy, who’s hard case and in his first lecture talked about how he think education should be about critical thinking, or developing a good “bullshit meter”.
He is obviously a decent guy, he did make a point of saying that people with chromosomal disorders such as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome are just people, and mentioned his genetically-intersex friend who is female-identified and quite happy that way; and it’s built into the course to discuss gender identity and mention it’s probably at least somewhat socialised. He talked about gender being something deep set and not necessarily matching your body or socialisation.
BUT he still at one point referred to an XY woman as a “bloke”. He used female pronouns for her the whole way through: but for another person despite having used correct pronouns and hesitated, calling her she - he/it. Each disorder was discussed in terms of chromosomes, hormones, and gender identity - the latter being regarded as fixed. AIS women being genotypically male, phenotypically female and female-identified. No mention of gender dysphoria separate from chromosomal disorders, no mention of the fact that that cis women can be just as interested in rifles and trucks as his friend with high circulating testosterone.
I was pleased that my cis-male friend was discomforted by the she/he/it thing as well as some of the negative comments, and mentioned it before I could.
At one point, despite having recently mostly decided that probably not going to transition, I started feeling like I couldn’t breathe and couldn’t concentrate.
I’m kinda tempted to post my email here but it’s enough of a wall of text already. Just thought I’d share anyway. I have been pleasantly surprised by the faculty, but I think it’s too easy to forget that when you do lectures on sexuality and gender, the people you are talking about are some of the people you are talking to.
I posted this rant of mine in the thread about the Cleveland abductions, but since it’s mostly personal stuff, it belongs more in the open thread here:
>
By the time I started to lurk in the feminist blogosphere to learn about what feminism is REALLY about, I’m growing more and more hatred towards the MRAs. Literal hatred.
Whenever I try to read the crap on AvfM and similar sites, I get red in the face for anger and close my browser immediately. I think of the patriarchal influence on society (something that I once was awfully blind to) and I get even angrier.
I can’t even bring myself to read the Italian MRA-ish websites I used to go to (and where I absorbed the anti-feminist propaganda that made be believe that straw feminism was the true feminism). Yes, there are “men’s rights” groups outside the USA too. Even if they’re more of a self-proclaimed “anti-feminist” group, rather than “official” MRAs.
I’m not ready to confront my old “comrades” for now.
And just to think I used to be one of them (as in, a sympathizer)… makes me want to punch my older self in the face.
I think I’m a sort of “rejection phase” right now.
Even if it’s highly improbable that they will ever become mainstream, I see them growing more and more, like a slowly, insidiously spreading cancer.
People like the MRAs are slowing down the progress of mankind.
Thank goodness for people like David and the AMR folks on Reddit who keeps exposing their misogyny and hate cult.
Will we ever see the MRM dismantled in our lifetime? I hope so, but I know that’s very unlikely.
Sorry if I sounded too overdramatic and/or overemotional, and for my English (it’s not my native language, there may be some mistakes. I’m that Italian ex-antifeminist who posted on Reddit some weeks ago.)
@LeShiggedyDiggedy I think the thing to remember is what happens when they try to have a rally. It’s five dudes. The SlutWalks had thousands of women show up. They’re loud, and it’s easy to be loud on the internet, but not really a movement.
amanda:
Right! How hard can it be for a few sad creatures with no lives to sit around and create an online presence and make it seem like their numbers are fucking Legion? I used to constantly remind myself that the most hateful and terrible people are always more motivated to make the most racket. Us people just trying to live and let live aren’t all that into being out in any public forum shouting about this or that. The internet is an especially bad mixture of this, what with the whole anonymity thing.
@amandajane5: Unfortunately, even if it’s just “five dudes” who actually show up at rallies, the rest of the Internet MRA population is still able to do harm by doxxing, trolling, harassing and promoting violence.
And yes, I’m aware that not all misogynists dudebros on the Internet are MRAs, but MRAs are the ones who actively encourage misogyny.
@AJ - “They’re loud, and it’s easy to be loud on the internet, but not really a movement.”
They’re the sort of movement described in the old dunny poem:
“Here I sit, broken hearted
I tried to shit but only farted.”
@hrovitnir - “The clothes are awesome Kitteh! ^_^ The hat is great too, I am envious of your skills.
”
Aww, thanks!
Do you knit at all, or fancy trying it? I can show you the pattern for this beret if you like, it’s really easy. Straight needles and plain stitch.
@ Kittehs Ha! That’s a good one for them!
The response to BoobQuake, the response to Anita Sarkeesian doing something fairly innocuous. She was trying to raise $6000 and got $120000 in response to getting threatened and doxxed. It’s a fight, but it’s one I think we’re winning. Very slowly, sure. It took two years of talking to my white male ex-husband about issues for him to identify as a feminist. I cried my eyes out when he did. My supportive friend who I’ve been talking to incessantly is also a white male, and a Libertarian to boot, and he keeps telling me that I’m putting him down when I link to things. When I said no, I was doing that because I think he’s a thinker, and you can’t change people’s views unless they have an open mind, he pretty much shut up and started thinking about it. My teaspoon of the month, but the more allies, the better. He’s one of those who took Schrodinger’s Rapist as a personal hit the first time he read it, but is also desperately looking for a woman to spend his life with.
Now you guys have me missing SF.
I have relatively good news! My grandfather’s out of ICU and in a normal room (well, geriatric ward I assume, but standard level serious)
So w00t for that.
Also, between the amount of lidocane and novicane in my mouth, closing my eyes was enough to basically tune out everything going on it there. So all in all, not too bad, and hey, now I don’t have an obvious cavity on a lower incisor, gotta keep those vampire fangs in tip top shape ^;.;^
Yea for Argenti’s grandfather. And for painkillers at the dentist’s.
Aaliyah! Aaliyah! *bounces up and down* Go to my uncle’s museum! It’s awesome and about GLBT stuff and admission is only $5!
Fuck, you’re already there and AFK by now. But if you are in the Castro maybe you will find it on your own.
This is really really good http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.de/2013/05/depression-part-two.html
This is really really good http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.de/2013/05/depression-part-two.html
2/3rds of it ring so true to me. The very first analogy is RIGHT on target.
Argenti, yay for your grandfather!
AJ, ::high five:: for getting those guys thinking!
Doomkitt3n - good luck with your kitty. It’s never easy.
And yay Weeboy! I’d still be keen for another Welly meetup if you are.
That hat makes it kind of tempting but knitting is the kind of activity that drives me to wanting to stab people instead.
Mum tried to teach me when I was about 9 I think and I hated it… regretting my intense dislike of anything feminine like knitting and sewing now! Definitely doesn’t come naturally to me though; building stuff is easier and more fun.
Oh and yay Argenti too! ^_^
The Hyperbole and a Half is great.
TW: Suicide
I never get *completely* emotionless (I get to retain the fun ones like deep self-loathing) and suicidal thoughts happened a lot sooner than it sounds like in her, in a combination of fantasising about stabbing myself and desperately wanting to be able to die without hurting those around me with suicide. I am no longer actually suicidal but retain a kind of longing to not be alive.
/TW
Anyway, I enjoy her discussing such things in such a matter of fact way, plus it’s still funny. And on point. I love the part about “are you taunting me? Is this some weird game where you name all the things I can’t do?” and the pictures associated with “The syrupy, over-simplified optimism started to feel almost offensive.”
hrovitnir - righto, no knitting then!
It’s another example of how things change in their coding over the centuries - knitting wasn’t coded specifically male or female in the past, overall. It was something men and women would do for extra income, in the evenings or when they couldn’t be working the fields, or even while doing things like bird-scaring; one could be knitting on the go. Professional knitters (for fashion items like fine silk stockings) would, iirc, likely be men. It’s yet another of those things that lost credit as it became more identified with women.
Trivia: those professional knitters in the 18th century could do 200 stitches a minute. Mind-boggling.
Also trivia (but NOT a “try it, you’ll like it!” message): I couldn’t hack knitting as a kid, either, and as an adult wasn’t interested - it was too slow, and I wasn’t into knitwear anyway. Over the last few years I’ve got into it as my taste in clothes has expanded and Mr K has taken to wearing CABLES TO DIE FOR OMG. Not just wearing them, but knitting them, too. I took it up again ‘cos of him and now I enjoy it, though it’s very early days yet!