Fun with charts, or why MGTOWers don’t understand marriage trends
As we’ve seen again and again on this blog, misogynists love to talk about how much better men are than women when it comes to things like math, logic, and scientific thinking generally. Unfortunately, their posts and comments online – filled with breathtaking failures of logic, absurd unsourced assertions and magical thinking — do not seem to bear out this hypothesis. I would compare the scientific thinking of most manosphere misogynists with that of the creationists, but frankly that would be insulting to creationists.
A case in point: a graph – provenance unknown – posted in a recent MGTOWforums discussion of marriage. The standard line amongst the lady haters is that marriage is on the way out , because men are “waking up” to the evils of marriage in an allegedly feminist state and deciding to, well, go their own way. The reality: while the marriage rate has been falling fairly steadily for the last quarter-century or so, for a variety of reasons, most people do marry at some point in their lives; it would be silly to assume that a trend over the course of several decades heralds the death of a social institution that has lasted (and has had many previous ups and downs) for millennia.
Of course, that’s not the way the MGTOWers in question see it. Their proof that marriage is doomed – doomed, I say – lies in this little graph which charts with mathematical precision the exact date range within which marriage will vanish forever from this good earth:
That's not right.
Now, there are many problems with this little graph. For one thing, what happens AFTER the projected marriage rate goes to zero? Does the marriage rate bounce like a rubber ball back into the positive realm? Or does it go below zero, with unmarried couples divorcing one another – just in case?
Second, this chart is based on a tiny number of data points – a mere 25 year sliver of the millennia-long history of divorce. If you go back a mere century and a half – see the chart below, taken from a paper you can find here — you’ll see that the marriage rate doesn’t conform to any neat mathematical formula; it jumps up and down, affected not only by slow-moving cultural changes but by events in the real world – look at the gigantic spike in marriage after World War II.
But the main issue here is that there is simply no way you can come up with a neat equation to predict the future of marriage because THE WORLD DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. History isn’t math. It cannot be predicted in advance, and any attempt to do so — especially one based on a tiny sliver of data — is doomed to failure. (Well, certain aspects of reality can be predicted — like when Halley’s comet will next return (assuming it’s not eaten by a giant space monster we haven’t discovered yet). Orbits can be calculated with mathematical precision; social trends cannot.)
To illustrate the dangers of extrapolation, let’s consider the little chart below, prepared by a helpful assistant (who happens to have access to a scanner). The chart provides some interesting data on the age of a hypothetical cat named “Fluffy” and her projected life expectancy. As you can see, Fluffy was hypothetically born in 2001, making her ten years old today, with her age increasing by one every year. (Just pretend that the numbers line up properly; my assistant, despite her many other charms, is not big on precision, and may have been drunk when she prepared this chart.) Based on this data (which show Fluffy’s age increasing by one every year), we could project that by the time the next century rolls around our dear little cat will be 99 years old.
If projecting the future were as easy as drawing little lines on graphs, the world would be a much simpler, and much less interesting, place to live. Most of us realize this. MRAs and MGTOWers, not so much.
Posted on June 13, 2011, in idiocy, marriage strike, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny. Bookmark the permalink. 407 Comments.
or it wuz originly sexist but they managd 2 salvig it w/ sum good writers n creatiivity n now its ablist cuz shes a hero 2 so many
idiot
Yeah, that’s too hard to read. I’m too tired to make it out right now.
Would it take too much effort to say write instead of rite?
And stupid and rules are actually less letters then your dumbed down versions. Why change what’s actually easier?
I hated school in general but was very happy when spell check could actually make me seem like I could spell a word like efficient. Why not take advantage of the technology?
Youth today remind me of the being of the modern art movement. A bunch of trained classical artists who were more then annoyed by critics started splattering paint on canvases in jest… now it’s normal.
When will you stop?
so u h8 art now? u r just a h8r like a nazi they were h8rs 2
i wonder if all teh gr8 artists out there know wut a h8r u r
spell check is 4 sell outs ppl who use them is like teh vichy french
who cares wut u thnk is moar effishent u can barely use a calculater l0ser
I hate redistricting. Stupid need to draw new lines and people who should know better then to mess with things!
Women are a Void that devours Male Light!
Emotion, whatever the Female Void would have you believe, is not a more Exalted State than is Thought. In point of fact, I think Emotion is animalistic, serpent-brain stuff. Animals do not Think, but I am reasonably certain that they have Emotions. ‘Eating this makes me Happy.’ ‘When my fur is all wet and I am cold, it makes me Sad.” “Ooo! Puppies!’ ‘It makes me Excited to Chase the Ball!’ Reason, as any husband can tell you, doesn’t stand a chance in an argument with Emotion… this was the fundamental reason, I believe, that women were denied the vote for so long.
If you look at her and see anything besides emptiness, fear and emotional hunger, you are looking at the parts of yourself which have been consumed to that point.
How can you learn math skills by punching in numbers?
I googled h8r so I learned something today.
Within art there was a movement towards what we now consider to be modern art that was started because no matter what the “greats” put out it was acclaimed by the critics. So they started testing them. I’m talking Picasso and the people in his circle. Well documented that many of the modern art movements best loved pieces were actually fodder for jest in inner art circles.
That being said I am a avid collector of Antonio Tamburro.
His early work was simple street scenes. I own this one
http://www.gallerydirectart.com/bej-94.html
He’s now creating art that would be considered to be modern art, and I stlll like him.
David
Please give me some un-nice people soon… I don’t get angry often and would like to take advantage of it.
hay dats ada from re2 he ripped it off n he is prolly racist 2
those inner art jerks wer h8rs just like u
u r so stoopid how can u not do math w/ a calcul8r oh sry i mean calculater spelling nazi
so stoopid calculaters r 4 math n u learn how to use 1 @ skool which u admitted u h8 2
I quoted Dave Sim, verbatim. What more do you need to get angry?
dave sim is a dick but since he invented teh sim city n teh sims games i cant be mad at him
Ami
I wish my son was at home so I could understand what your saying????
Thanks..And except for the first sentence I pretty much got what you were saying.
It’s all in the delivery, Spearhafoc. Perhaps he needs MRAL or NWOSLave or Ion to present it as TRUE FACTS.
Kave, I will keep you and yours in my prayers.
What you didn’t understand that Pam? That isn’t a surprise given that you’re just the sort of emotional “oh my god the puppies” woman that he was talking about. Your inane criticism, poorly disguised as sarcastic mockery, gives away just how angry you are when the truth stabs at you. Yes Virginia, there is an emotional female nature.
Maybe all our regular trolls are scared of Kave and don’t want to tangle with him?
Behold friends! The feminist nature shows itself! It is truly amazing to see how so many people can still believe in this misguided philosophy that has caused such damage to the now renamed USSA! Scared? Never! We have tried to be patient and rational with you! But it is apparent that such efforts are futile! Perhaps it is you who do not want to tangle with us! Perhaps it is you who understand deep within your female hindbrain that you are responsible for the depths of misery and destruction, both moral and economic, that currently befalls our formerly wonderful nation since World War II! We are just trying to save the future, and ask that you join us! If, as you say, none of our strategems will be successful, then things will stay the same, and you will have lost nothing! But if we are correct, then America will be stronger and free and women and men will be liberated from their falsely created roles by the mendacious feminist movement! We do not wish you ill will, merely the freedom that you claim to cherish and fight for! Surely, this is not an unpalatable desire!
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
Ami. A. Angelwings
@Ami,
Could I get fries with that? And To Go??
that’s why you feminists are so fat and cant get a date
Ah, but you will succumb to my exotic Asian-ness and my makeup and high heels… then I will steal your sperm and have MY baby who I will support by the fruits of YOUR labours!! Muah ah ah ah aaaaahhhh!!!
I’m neither a feminist nor an MRA. Honestly, both philosophies strike me as being very similar. I used to consider myself a feminist but all of the dishonesty and hypocrisy turned me off. For example, you criticize (a very small subset I might add, but as usual David and his echo chamber here cherry picks from the MRM what they want to) the desire some MRAs have to date foreign women, specifically Asian ones. But yet, you always also talk about wanting feminist men, which are submissive, quiet, intelligent and subservient. Sound familiar? Yes. It’s an exotification of traits of Asian men, except applied to Western men, which also speaks to the racism within the movement and within feminist women in general. But isn’t this hypocrisy? How can you criticize SOME people of one movement when your movement has it’s own unchecked exotification of Asian men in it. Again, I’m not an MRA or a troll, I’m just an objective observer, who is just asking some questions and hoping to get some honest, thought-out answers. My experience with feminist spaces is that they are hostile to anything that questions the desires of women, but I’m hoping this space will be different.
Ami, you’re starting to scare me!
Kave- I’m so sorry to hear what you and your family is going through. Your daughter sounds amazing and is extremely brave. I’ll be thinking of you guys
*blinks at Ami and is puzzled by the concept of Asian men being submissive/subservient* Seriously, all the Asian guys I have known have been domineering asshats. Or maybe it is just Arizona.
Kave: blessings to you and your family.
Hope some nice meaty trolls stroll by for you to devour!
Damn, Ami, you are good!
(who was that JAQ troll? It was quite some time ago, on the other blog.)
I think she’s offering herself up as the “sacrificial troll” in an effort to give Kave a target at which he can vent his spleen.
I think that was “vagrantsvoice”
oh, Kave! *hugs* I am so sorry! And I don’t mind you posting here sometimes to vent. I think this community is made better by supporting each other.
Uh, I can try being a troll, too, if you like…
What you don’t understand is that the STATE is trying to indoctrinate all of our children. And turn them gay! Women want this because they think little gay boys are adorable. And you all support this! Child Sodomy! As long as they’re using condoms they’re alright? Right? YOU SICK FUCKS!
Men = bad, women = good, lesbian = pie, genderqeer = AWESOME
I have been researching this site as well as MRM websites, and I must say that the MRM sites such as the Spearhead are much more reasonable and their commenters are much nicer also. BIGWALLOFTEXT. I am a class of advanced kindergarteners with behavior problems, and I am doing a research project that I am discussing amongst myself for important learning purposes, and you feminist is all poopyheads.
Needs more spelling and grammar errors.
I suggest:
But otherwise, you have his voice right.
Hahah, spearboy, you think I care about your anti-gramar nanzi ways! I dont ! Your just correcting me because you cant forumale an argument against my ideas! Silly boy, go back to posting pretty pictures, that’s all you’re good for.
And why hasnt anyone asnwered my questions yet!?!
This is bullshit, why am I on moderation?
It’s because you have short fingers.
MRAL, you were on moderation b/c I didn’t want this to turn into another thread about you. You’re off moderation now. Just behave.
MRAL
You are on moderation because you are disposable. Want me to explain that?
He’s on moderation because he’s a man, David. Why can’t you just admit that?
No, no, it’s totes the fingers, guys.
MRAL, you know I’m just teasing you, right? Learn to laugh with us! It’ll make you a happier person! And help you get laid!
I prefer short, skinny, sarcastic men with wicked smiles. Bonus if they’re well-dressed and don’t mind sitting on my lap for makeouts.
Why don’t they make more of those?
Yes Kave, please explain that.
It’s a feminist plot, MRAL.
It’s because you’re a petty person, MRAL, and have no capacity to empathize with others or admit that, gee, maybe someone’s beloved daughter having to face cancer is worse than having short fingers and a personality so odious to women that none of them want to sleep with you.
I never said that, but people are making snide remarks about me and I won’t let that go unchallenged.
@MRAL: The only reason you can say that is because David deleted your comment, wherein you said something along the lines of “My problems aren’t petty.”
Your problems ARE petty, because you are a petty person and incapable of realizing that sometimes, it’s best to shut the fuck up and let other people talk about what’s going on in THEIR lives, and that saying “Wow, Kave [or whoever], that’s rough. I really hope everything works out,” isn’t going to be some cataclysmic event that makes your balls fall off.
But, no. It’s all about you. You have succeeded in turning nearly every thread in which you appear into the MRAL Pity Party Hour, where many of the commenters here try to rally around and give support and advice. And what do we get? To paraphrase you, you spit on all of us. You’re obsessed with your height and eye and short fingers, and are convinced that no one can ever suffer as much as you have, ever. The discrimination that other people suffer is never as bad as what you perceive as has happened to you, personally. Other people might be denied jobs based on the color of their skin, or housing because of their sexuality, or ignored because of their gender… but the realities of those people is somehow never as bad as the fact that you can’t find a woman with enough internalized self-hatred to think that fucking you is a good idea.
You’re nothing more than a troll. And I don’t mean that in the ‘stir shit up on the Internet’ kind of way, though you’re that, too. I mean the ugly, hateful, destructive kind of troll. And by ugly, I mean your fucking personality. I don’t give a shit about what my friends look like (some of them are even FAT), and am pretty forgiving on what my lovers look like, but I have way too much self-respect to hang out with, much less fuck, someone with as repulsive a personality as you have.
So, yeah, let this “go unchallenged.” I stand by every fucking thing I just said, and will only recant when you can demonstrate some basic human empathy.
I, personally, am done with trying to offer you advice on your personal problems. I refuse to engage with you any further about your physical flaws, your sexless life or any perceived personal unfairness in your own life. And I really hope everyone else here starts doing the same thing.
Grow the fuck up.
@Victoria von Syrus: Hear, hear! *applause*
As well the divorce rate in by fare its largest down trend since the chart began and challenging is lower trend line, the marriage rate has drawn a head and shoulders and breached previous levels of support.
(((interweb hugs))) to Kave. I can’t even imagine my family being in your situation.
In other news:
NWOSlave is so impenetrably stupid he gives me a headache. How do you all put up with him?
Maybe the formalized arrangement of marriage where people stand up in front of others and make some kind of legally binding pledge is trending downward-that does not mean people are not mating as in two people forming a new family unit.
I know those with no concept of history *cough* NWOaf *cough* think this means that society is DOOOOOOMED but it just means that society is reverting to what relationships had been before splitting couples drove everyone crazy over their antique doorknobs and who should get them. And at some point the state will be dragged right back in no matter how little it wants to be involved so those formerly informal arrangements will become formal again.
Wow, I keep trying to avoid the subject of my looks and my problems but it seems the lure of insulting me is just too great for a lot of people here.
That’s because you’re disposable mral. You asked what I meant by that it’s really quite simple. A persons value is based on what they contribute to society. Do you contribute anything of value? From what I’ve seen of you here I would say not, in fact your constant self pity is in of itself a drain on society, the people around you..
Will you ever grow up and become a productive member of society or will you forever be a garbage person? Will you grow up to help others or spend your life expecting others to help you?
When I’m a billionaire, I will find out your name, find out where you work, buy that company, and fire you.
MRAL: I laughed really hard. Thanks.
Molly Ren: I learned it as
Queer
Uncertain
Intergender
Lesbian
Trans
Bi
Asexual
Gay
Thus filling all the letters of QUILTBAG
Kave: I was on the road, so I have been behind (I try to read all the comments). I’m so sorry. I don’t know what else to say, save that you all have my best wishes.