Question Time: MRAs and PUAs in the real world
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Reading through some of the stranger comments from MRAs and PUAs and other manospherean types I often find myself wondering to what degree this “new misogyny” reaches beyond the internet. I don’t mean old-fashioned misogyny and sexism, which are obviously fairly common offline. I mean the elaborate misogynistic ideologies we discuss here – the “feminism runs the world,” “all women are hypergamous bitches who will dump you in a second for an alpha,” “we hunted the mammoth to feed you” kind of stuff.
I run across much less of this offline than on, though the people I hang out with aren’t exactly a representative sampling of the general public.
So I’m asking you, dear readers, to tell me a bit about your own experiences. Do you run across MRAs/PUAs in the real world on a regular or even an irregular basis? Where (online or off) did you first encounter MRAs and/or PUAs? What aspects of what we might call the manosphere ideology are the most common offline? If it seems less common offline, is this because the beliefs are not that widespread, or is it that people are less willing to say the kind of horrific misogynistic shit they say online to other people face to face?
Thoughts?
Posted on February 19, 2013, in misogyny, MRA, PUA, question time. Bookmark the permalink. 406 Comments.
Like a lot of counterintuitive results, it’s actually just wrong. Yes, two-income families have lower purchasing power than they used to (and, perhaps, lower even than one-income families may have had at one point), but that isn’t the fault of people for working.
At this point we can all use a happy story:
On February 20, 1963 a couple of teenagers met in the Philippines in high school. They lost contact after that year in the same school.
Over time they traveled the world but never meeting again.
Then they ran into each other on Facebook and today, 50 years later, they were married.
Drew, as a long-time stitcher and recent knitter, the only thing I can recommend for hands getting sore is rest. It’s like any other repetitive strain injury. I’m sorry your mum has rheumatoid arthritis, that’s horrible and all the more frustrating since she loves sewing.
On the magnifier topic, there’s a range of strengths with the specs. I use the weakest ones. I recommend them because of the convenience of not having to have a big magnifier that has to sit on the table, or whatever.
Drew, perhaps Japanese punch embroidery? They use somewhat larger tools. Otherwise, sewing projects using an embroidery machine or sewing machine might work.
Embroidery machines go from 400 and up, but I probably wouldn’t suggest anything below a grand because of versitility and durabilty issues.
Drew is also in favor of banning ice cream because of its proven link to deaths by drowning.
pillow - I wear glasses too, multifocals, but I don’t use them when I’m sewing/reading/knitting. My close vision has deteriorated a bit with age, which is where the magnifiers are perfect. They’re not expensive, either, at least not here - about $25.
All too often, “counter-intuitive” is to scholarly work what “edgy” is to humor.
Cool story princessbonbon!
@Drew
In my experience (I have fibromyalgia with terrible hand pain), the pain got better once I found an activity that let me exercise my hands without ever overdoing it (or with a bit of warning that the point is coming soon). Personally (and this is a bit of a “kid” activity so I don’t know how it would go over with your mother), I found Perler beading to be really helpful. I get to exercise my hands and practice fine motor skills, but the beads are big enough for me to not overstress. I actually use cross-stitch patterns for a lot of what I make so it is a bit like needlework.
If you search for “Perler,” you should get a link that will give you 40% off an item and a lower amount to spend for free shipping. (Or, if not, try again soon. They have that deal a lot.) http://perler.eksuccessbrands.com/
I’m really into it now as it is both physical therapy for me and fun. I make coasters and things to hang on my walls and magnets and ornaments. If you don’t buy the colors individually, it should only be about $20 to get enough to try it out. I don’t know if the results will be as good as mine were (my hand pain decreased by at least half and I can now do more things), but it might be worth a try.
Truer words were ne’er spoken.
Another one is “profound.” People go “ooh, I’d never thought of that, it’s so profound” when often the reason you wouldn’t have thought of it is because it’s not true.
Kitteh, without my glasses I be considered legally blind. I can’t see a damn thing an inch in front of my face without them! Also, my glasses tend to slide, so two pairs would drive me nuts.
I’m hoping to get a magnifer that clips onto my hoop or something.
Drew, sorry to hear about your mom. Both my mother and my grandmother suffer from arthritis that runs from the tips of their fingers to the bottom of their spines. My grandma also has soft tissue damage to her arms and hands. Its the result of so many years of doing so much sewing and knitting. In my grandmas case, she still knits every day, but she takes it slower and takes frequent breaks. Some days she just can’t do much, and that’s her reason for getting out of bed each morning.
Perhaps your mom could try learning new crafting skills with tools that are larger or could be adapted to her needs?
pillow - oh crap, yeah, magnifiers won’t be much help if your eyesight’s that restricted. I’m short-sighted as in not being able to focus more than arm’s length away, but that’s a different kettle of haddock.
katz - LOL about “profound”. Mr K has often said things I’d not thought of, or from an angle I hadn’t thought of, but if I called ‘em profound he’d fall over laughing.
I really wish more people embroidered. There’s an embroidery guild in town I think, but all of the work they do (or at least show) is cross stitch. Beautiful work really, but not my cup of tea. Also, they only meet once a month.
pillowinhell: Do I start a blackwork sampler/dust cover for my sewing machine on the forty count linen and hope my eyes don’t bleed, or do I wait indefinitely until I manage to find a suitable and probably expensive magnifying glass?
You could pay 20 bucks for some 4x reading glasses.
I am amazed at the effect of the reading glasses when I’m looking at stuff withing three feet of my face.
If that doesn’t work… wait. I love blackwork, and I love projects, and the frustration of trying to do one when only a few minutes is possible before the drops of blood are threatening to stain the linen… bad.
I really like, btw, red and black work.
I’ve done embroidery. I am prone to doing illustrative free-form (say a bonsai on black silk).
Ugh: So it’s my fault for wanting to argue his points?
In a word yes. Rather than point out the speciousness of his base claim you gave it credence. That’s on you, and the responses you got were based on the speciousness of the arguments you were (intended, or not) defending.
Drew: I could offer a more hedged, nuanced, and narrower statement. but I don’t think it’s worth anybody’s time at this point.
Why didn’t you start with one? Insulting the intelligence/experience/knowledge of the audience is a piss poor way to start anything.
My point in posting the link to Warren is that the rise of two-income households has reduced purchasing power for lots of families
Has it? What it looks like is (for whatever reason) wages declined, but with two incomes family incomes increased; which masked the structural problem. Then, because of the stagnation, people who were not possessed of two incomes in the household took a hit. That hit has had second-order effects.
pillowinhell: Kitteh, without my glasses I be considered legally blind. I can’t see a damn thing an inch in front of my face without them! Also, my glasses tend to slide, so two pairs would drive me nuts.
Get a jewelers hat (or whatever they call it). It’s like a baseball cap, but it has a pair of magnifying lenses in the bill. My ex’s mother used it for sewing, for much the same reason you mention.
In short: it’s not a good idea to come onto a misogyny-mocking site with a claim that boils down to “women are a problem for people”.
@pecunium
Saying that his claim was entirely wrong was defending it? He claimed that wages had decreased in the last 60 years as a result. I pointed out he was wrong, because he was. As a result, you’ve been extremely condescending.
We’re on the same side here, please give the condescension a rest.
And yeah, telling me that I was “unintentionally” defending a viewpoint through not arguing exactly the way you want? As in, telling me you know better than me what I believe? Really not cool.
pillow in hell, have you seen this sort of website? They’ve a range of stuff and it’s not expensive.
http://www.jdr-be.com/embroidery-magnifiers-lights.htm
Oooooooooh! I have not seen this site before! And look! The magnifyers aren’t atrociously expensive!!!
Imma look and pick out stuff and bug Beloved about my upcoming birthday!!
Yayyy!
(premptive apology for responding to something that was a couple pages ago)
@nitram
Thank you for your kind words
My depression was actually acting up pretty recently (past month) but it’s returning more to normal now. Luckily I haven’t had to deal with those kind of people in real life, idk if I’m just very sheltered *shrug*
My sister actually convinced me I should go to the doctor to get it checked out, and got me to start meds, so my she’s kind of awesome
Ugh: And yeah, telling me that I was “unintentionally” defending a viewpoint through not arguing exactly the way you want? As in, telling me you know better than me what I believe? Really not cool.
I didn’t say what you believed. I wasn’t being at all sarcastic. I think your defense of his base position was unintentional.
The response you got was because people read your words, and saw them as being supportive of him. Telling us to divine your intent is pretty condescending, in it’s own right.
How?! What did I say at any point that indicated I agreed with any of his points?
He said real wages had decreased over the past 60 years. I pointed out that they had actually increased, substantially. That is just a factual statement.
Seriously, look at what you’re saying here: I disagreed with him, and argued my position honestly, but because I didn’t disagree in the Pecunium-approved correct way to disagree, I don’t deserve to be spoken to with respect.
I’m dropping by not to get into the conversation about economics (I will happily admit that it’s not my field), but to say that Hand-eze gloves have been a real life-saver…or rather, hand-saver, for me. My jobs for the last 15+ years have involved writing, typing, and mousing all day long, and one summer when I did a ton of overtime, I started getting a chronic ache in my hands. I found these gloves, and they really help. They offer a surprising amount of support while allowing full range of movement. They’re nice if you tend to get cold hands, too.
Happily, no sign of carpal tunnel yet. A co-worker developed that, and I’m almost paranoid about being aware of the symptoms.
My mother is starting to get some arthritis in her hands. The gloves really help her, too.
http://www.handezegloves.com/
Mom also used to do embroidery and used one of these for magnifying since she, too, wears glasses: The cord goes around your neck and the magnifier kind of sits on your chest.
Darice Neck Magnifier on Cord
I never saw Ugh agreeing. They misread a graph (which Ugh noted), that was about it.
@ellex
One of my doctors cautioned against wearing gloves like that too often. As they weren’t really helping me, I stopped so I don’t know how often would be bad, but I’d recommend asking a doctor if anyone plans on wearing them a lot. (I also pulled a muscle in my shoulder from wearing a larger version because it changed the way I moved.)
In case it matters, this was back before I was diagnosed and they hadn’t ruled out rheumatoid arthritis or carpal tunnel.
Oh look, a picture! How did that happen?! Must be the magic of Amazon.
Also, here: have a new Simon’s cat video. I need happy thoughts today.
Ugh: I don’t deserve to be spoken to with respect.
What do you see as, “disrespect”?
Some Gal -
These are supposed to help prevent carpal tunnel. I’ve been wearing them off and on for about 6 years now, and they’ve really cut down on the ache from typing. I’ve also used them when using the weedwacker, because weedwackers aren’t designed for short people and using it makes my wrists ache.
My doctor, on learning what I do for a living and how long I’ve been doing it, was very much in support of my wearing the gloves anytime my hands start to ache.
But you have a point - if your hands are giving you enough trouble to seek out a doctor, then you should certainly ask if the gloves are appropriate.
But…a larger version? You may be thinking of a wrist brace? Hand-eze are entirely made of very thin cloth - they really shouldn’t change the way you move.
Ellex, I’m glad you posted that link! Mum’s got a touch of arthritis in her wrist and I get achey hands occasionally (keyboard and mouse and knitting too). I’m going to check them out, with Some Gal’s proviso about not overusing them.
@pillow in hell - is there a LensCrafters or similar store near you? My Mom had cataract surgery and needed really strong reading glasses, stronger than what she could find in the typical displays in the Rite Aid type of store. They were able to help her find far stronger magnifications. She wore those in place of her glasses to read while she was without her prescription.
I don’t embroider. I used to do cross-stitch but - irony alert - it strained my eyes too much and I switched to knitting.
I didn’t read Ugh as agreeing with Drew, for what it’s worth.
@ellex
I was (at the time) alternating between a lot of different things including just ACE bandages. It may have been the wrist brace, but I was told it was because I was probably moving “wrong” because I had things on my hand. So, my understanding was that it could happen with any if them since it was my reaction and not the specific thing causing the problem.
One if the small braces I was given (it was light material like what you linked to plus a bit of metal support to hold the wrist at the right angle) was also specifically for carpal tunnel and was the one I was “wearing too much,” which was anytime it hurt or, y’know, all the time.
I’ve been really unlucky in that most of the things that work for most people seem to make things worse for me (from gloves to braces to drugs, all of it) and no one had warned me that could happen with most of it.
@The Kittehs’
I hope they work! A (similar?) thing that helps my mom with her hand pain are compression gloves. I tried some and they made me cry it was so awful, but the physical therapists said that they help most people. I think the physical therapist said I could wear those as much as I wanted, but I was in a distracting amount of pain at the time.
My mom has a very physical, using her hands a lot job, and that is about all she’s found that helps.
Oh! The other thing that helps some people is a lidocaine cream. They are mostly sold for hemorrhoids, but a lot of people use it for pain anywhere (like leg waxing). There are stronger prescription-only (at least in the US) creams available, too. It is, for me, a bit shallow/superficial for my pain, but sometimes numbing just the outside of the hand is enough. I don’t know how well it would work for other causes of pain, but that might be something else to look into.
I get so behind on this site; I did miss lumi’s question, Kitty. Have replied now! A page or two later.
Thank you ellex for the glove recommendation! I am only 27 and I get very achey hands so anything that might help would be great. I’m shitting myself that I might get early arthritis (not that these will help, but as an aside). I also have a bad back (from birth + injury at a young age), bad ankles (from being made to run inappropriately) and consequently aching knees, as well as some issues with my hips I think I need to get looked into.
/feeling sorry for myself.
Ellex - Mum uses Goanna arthritis cream and finds that helps, and wears a magnetic wrist bandage, and mostly finds they’re good, but on bad days I think she could do with something more. I want to look into those gloves though, because thin = good - most of the compression bandages and so on are too darn thick to work in.
Hrovitnir, I saw that, and just asked my own question in response!
@hrovitnir
Have you ever heard of a TENS unit? It send out tiny electrical impulses that stop your nerves from telling your brain “ow!” (basically, or like white noise for nerves). I love mine almost as much as I love my cat. I use it on my ankles, back, knees, shoulders, hips, hands and wrists, etc. They are (I think) prescription-only, but that might be worth looking into. It is a bit of an investment (even with insurance, mine costs more than I’d like), but it can be used everywhere but over your heart and your brain.
I don’t know that I have seen a lot of MRA or PUA activities out in the world. I was recently introduced to MRA’s online, and am still trying to make sense of how to interact with them. I have seen plenty of more “everyday” examples. Considering how horrible some of the examples of “mundane” sexism are I guess that says something.
I have encountered pua thinking out in the wild. It’s not uncommon for my nerdy friends to offer dating advice based on them. I have also heard some things like “ladder theory” get brought up.
I understand the appeal of pua. I’m nerdy and socially awkward. The thought of being able to work a conversation like an equation is comforting …… however no matter how many web ads or personal advice i get I just have never been able to try it. I couldn’t bring myself to treat people that way. I can’t watch that dancing video ’cause that guy is just … icky. And it’s an icky that touches my soul.
Honestly, most of the mra stuff i have encountered is on websites for comics,games, and assorted nerdery. There are fandoms that I just don’t frequent.
unrelated comment- sonichu? really? Wouldn’t surprise me if CWC was an mra. Though it also wouldn’t surprise me if someone was trolling as him either. Last I heard he was kinda quiet online and trying to avoid people due to the years of controversy.
Marie,
Glad it’s better now. I don’t think it’s being sheltered as much as it is sheltering yourself. People are ashamed to talk about their depression so we keep it to ourselves about the meds stigma, etc. in fact, I was sorta guilty of it in my previous post, leaving out the fact that I’ve suffered from depression most of my adult life. Yet I don’t consider my life a sad one. The depression just comes and hits me and it’s usually unrelated to any happenings in my life. In other words, my life situation could be going along swimmingly, but I’ll still get a bout of depression.
I made the mistake once of confiding in a coworker that my new meds were making me feel like crap and she said “what do you have to be depressed about? You have a nice husband, healthy family, blah blah.” I told her I had absolutely nothing to be depressed about. The depression itself is the problem. I have good things and challenging things in my life just like anyone else. Depression is, for me anyway, independent of situation.
And this is why I keep it to myself: morons like that shake me up. Like I have to prove it to them.
Glad you have a sister who helped you. It’s always good to have a supportive person who can see the depression and help practically. My hubby does that for me. He’s able to spot it coming on better than me, and can help get my ass to the doc, when I frankly, am not able to when in the thick of it. That practical help makes it so much more manageable.
Best of luck to you!
The Hand-eze gloves are very like compression gloves, but very thin and not as tight. Personally, I can’t wear them for more than a few hours at a time. They don’t exactly get uncomfortable, but I feel like I’ve had them on long enough. Then again, my current pair are fairly new and still snug.
They should be snug but not tight. They’re washable, too, so if they get dirty or a little too loose, just throw them in the wash and the elastic fabric will tighten up.
Kitteh and Some Gal - have you tried Arnica montana? I’m finding homeopathic remedies are pretty effective. It’s really hard to find Arnica in a beeswax or petrolatum/lanoiin base, but if you can find it, I highly recommend it. Unfortunately, most topical forms of Arnica are alcohol based gels and creams, and the effects don’t last nearly as long as the beeswax and petrolatum/lanolin based versions do.
It’s great on my mother’s arthritic ankle and strained hamstring. She broke her ankle some years ago (running after Tigwell!) and the doctor said she needed to have the ankle rebroken because the bone had healed slightly crooked and she’d have arthritis. She declined. Now she has arthritis in the ankle she didn’t break, but the one she did break is just fine. Go figure!
Did y’all hear about the 11-year-old cancer patient who spontaneously caught on fire?
…Sorry, just didn’t think this thread was grim enough yet. :p
@ellex
Thansk. I’ll have to try it. (I’ll have to use one of the alcohol-based ones though because I can barely handle that type of sensation on my hands when they are really bad. I’ve had to stop using any kind of lotion because the feeling of having something heavy coating my hands lasts for hours. Even the lidocaine gel I have takes a bit for the feeling of having sealed in the burning heat to go away and that feels cool and starts to numb pretty quickly.)
It doesn’t feel hot, does it? One of the things I saw when I looked it up described it as a heating cream like Ben-Gay, but not burning.
@Bagelsan
You just wait until your body breaks down. Young whippersnappers…mtermuttermutter.
/is 30.
Some Gal -
No, there’s no additional sensation other than whatever is used for the base. My mother and I mainly prefer the beeswax or petrolatum base because it seems to last longer. But the other types are effective too. It’s not numbing. It does make the pain stop. It’s not effective for everybody or for all types of pain, though.
There are several places online that sell homeopathic remedies. I’ve seen it on Amazon, too. Google “homeopathy” and look for Arnica or Arnica montana. Most of what you’ll see are the oral versions, which is great for bruising and minor injuries, but doesn’t seem to work as well on chronic aches.
FYI - sometimes homeopathic remedies for pain make it hurt a little worse before it feels better. I really haven’t experienced this with the Arnica, but I have experienced it with a combination remedy for minor burns and cuts. It lasts maybe 5-10 seconds and then relief! With Arnica I usually find that the relief from the ache is so subtle I don’t even realize it doesn’t hurt anymore.
@ellex
Good! (I was scared.)
The problem with the extra bit if pain is that it won’t go away. I mean, with fibromyalgia, the problem is that my nerves send their “everything is fine” signals and my brain hears “Ahh! We’re on fire!” or “Oh no! Somethings been cut off!” So when my nerves actually send a legit “Oh, shit!” message, my brain won’t stop hearing it until long after it’s over. So, I am very careful. Just trying to open a closed too tightly bottle of soda is pretty much rugburn on my palms for over 30 minutes.
My physical therapists were pretty insistent that I not make the pain worse because it will stay worse and then we have to really struggle to get it back down. So, I tend to be really cautious.
Seconded!
/is 50.
To return to the original topic (Hi! I’m back, at least for this post), I believe I’ve talked about my ‘MRA’ friend on here before. I met him in my first year of college, and he would frequently talk about how unfair the world was to men. He didn’t consider himself an MRA (at least he never used that word), but he had many of the same talking points: Most women who are raped deserve it, men should be able to force their wives to get an abortion, complaining about affirmative action, men can understand abstract thinking but women can’t, women were never oppressed, etc. He would have seemed normal to most people- quiet, shy and painfully polite.
Before that, having lived in Switzerland and the US, I very rarely (never?) encountered such thinking, but then again I was young, very introverted, and not at all interested in gender issues. I did meet a few very conservative religious people, but I don’t consider them to be MRAs, just traditional.
I’m thinking most of the people who are mocked here are not as easily recognizable as we might like to think. And yeah, I think it’s getting worse. I don’t really know why, but it is. One of my friends who is a part-time tutor at the university recently told me that she and the other tutors have decided to drop feminism as a theory and replace it with something else, because it caused too much controversy and they got tired of the hassle. And we’re not allowed to use the word feminism anymore, just gender studies (which I am more in favour of anyway, but that’s another story). It just scares me a bit how much effect social pressure like that can have.
Nice to see so many new people, by the way. I really like your gravatar, too, Kitteh’s Unpaid Help. Looks just like my old cat!
Hi Carleyblue, nice to see you back!
My gravatar (for the moment, lol) is Maddie, with her great friends The Shooz.
Thank you everyone, for your support. It means a lot. I did start seeing a therapist last year, and it really helped. I had to stop going because my husband’s job moved us to Europe, but I am doing much better. It was hard, especially before I married and moved away, because the guy who assulted me was a friend, so when I came out about it nearly a year after it had happened, he had no problems convincing the friends we shared that I was lying. I didn’t really stay friends with those people afterwards.
But now I’ve gotten help, my husband is very supportive, and my 2 year old daughter helps me through the tough days by being her adorable self.
@kitteh
She just told him she’d take care of it and sent him on his way. I did get promoted to cashier a few months later, though I don’t think that was a response to crazy shouting old man.
Drst, you got eyestrain huh? Yeah, between the pattern and the fabric I can see that.
Me, I just go cross eyed for a bit. Usually I have several projects on the go for embroidery, depending on my mood and how much concentration it takes. This black work sampler is gonna be heavy on the “shut up and don’t bug me factor” because it does take close attention to detail. What I can’t figure out is why I like black work, but not cross stitch? Makes no sense to me.
I remember the time I had just started a new job at a large hardware store and I overheard an older man in the break room claim that the white man was now the most oppressed type of person. I couldn’t even react, I was so shocked to hear this in person. I hate when that happens and wish I would’ve told him what was what. But sometimes you just can’t believe your ears.
And yeah, met plenty of “nice guys” back when I was in the dating pool who were not actually nice at all.