When you assume: A “Nice Guy” launches a pre-emptive strike
Sexy buff party guys
So I’ve been reading Reddit’s CreepyPMs subreddit a lot lately, where the recipients of bizarre and, well, creepy personal messages share them with the world. As you might imagine, some of the creepiest come from complete strangers on dating sites, like the following message received by a young woman on MeetMe, who put up a profile stating that she was looking for friends only (she already has a boyfriend) and that she would talk to anyone.
Well, one young man didn’t quite believe her, and sent this message:
He doesn’t judge, huh? That’s the most judgy non-judgemental message I’ve ever seen.
If you haven’t already checked out CreepyPMs, go take a look. You can lose hours in there.
Posted on January 19, 2014, in alpha males, boner rage, creepy, empathy deficit, evil sexy ladies, mantrum, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, nice guys, reddit, the enigma that is ladies and tagged creepy, meetme, misogyny, online dating, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 238 Comments.
Ditto to both those points, marinerachel.
And it was a stupid joke anyway, because shaved =/= bald.
Mares eat oats and does eat oats, so I think you’re set. Unless you get a sheep or a goat. Little lambs eat ivy. A kid’ll eat ivy too.
Kim - yeah, that’s what I thought: dumb excuse to make a sleazy joke.
Deer like tree bark, don’t they?
I completely agree - this is a really pernicious trend that I find genuinely disturbing. Not least because I have kids who’ll become teenagers in a scarily short space of time.
One of the funniest things I ever saw online was my wife having an argument with a man over contemporary pubic hair fashion - it was hilarious because his observations seemed to come exclusively from porn whereas my wife was (and remains) a gynaecological ultrasonographer. In other words, she gets to examine twenty or more examples per day, over a period of years, and of women of all ages and walks of life. Even if this guy was the reincarnation of Casanova (he wasn’t: in fact, he was married and supposedly faithful), he couldn’t possibly match that for breadth of research.
Anyway, the argument was about five or six years ago, and concerned his claim that “the majority” of British women chose to shave off all their pubic hair. At the time, according to my wife (and I have no reason to disbelieve her), this was wildly untrue - she’d certainly encounter a bare mons from time to time, but it was comparatively rare.
But since then, it’s become much, much more common, especially amongst younger women, and she’s as disturbed about it as I am about what it’s saying about our culture. We both agree with the theory that it started out in porn as a method of making the close-up genital interaction more visible, and somehow it’s gained this extra baggage, some of which is completely nonsensical. (For instance, the “hygiene” argument - surely regularly putting yourself in a situation where you might suffer tiny cuts and abrasions will make the area in question far more prone to infection?)
Obviously, this is in no way intended as a criticism of people who shave themselves voluntarily - whatever floats your boat is fine by me (and it’s none of my business anyway, as it’s infinitesimally unlikely that I’ll ever see or interact with the end result). But doing it under peer or (perceived) cultural pressure is something far more insidious.
I’m reminded of a comment in the book Harem, by Alev Lytle Croutier, where she describes the hair removal practices in harems (and she was introduced to some of these by her grandmother).
“It was considered a sin to have hair on one’s private parts, and harem women, extremely observant on this point, scurried off to the hamams at the first sign of hair. They removed hair not only from their legs and underarms, but from all body crevices, even nostrils and ears. They spread themselves with a burning paste, which was later scraped off with the sharp edge of mussel shells.” (p. 85)
She goes on to say the paste in question was rusma, which contained arsenic and was corrosive if left on the skin too long.
The method her grandmother showed her was ada, which is still popular in parts of Turkey. It’s a paste of lemon and sugar, caramelised to the right consistency and spread like a putty on the hair. Then it’s ripped off and the hair with it, presumably the same as with waxing.
I really hate the whole “women must be hairless and it doesn’t matter how much it hurts or endangers them to conform to this requirement” thing. I like the current fad for it even more, since I heartily dislike mainstream porn.
*dislike the current fad. The Editing Monster strikes!
Wow, the thread has turned down an interesting path. From a medical perspective, removing pubic hair may not be a terribly good idea:
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/04/war-pubic-hair.html
http://www.livescience.com/27996-pubic-hair-removal-waxing-sti-risk.html
From that second article, exactly what Wetherby said above:
“Small nicks or cuts in the skin, which could occur with hair removal, can make it easier for viruses to establish infections, researchers say.”
There’s some horrific stuff in the first article. I mean, I find the idea of removing hair around the most delicate (except the eyeballs) area on my body horrific anway, but all those infections! Talk about a must-read for anyone thinking of doing it. ::hurk::
If teal deer are anything like whitetail deer, they’ll eat just about anything plant-wise. Leaves, plants, twigs, nuts, berries - they even eat fungus. They are especially fond of acorns, so I’ll send some acorns in case the teal deer them:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Wu03KqdSZRQ/Tqdw8DV-ZuI/AAAAAAAAEZM/DUrFfZDPn4s/s1600/acorn+pile.jpg
For the record, trimming pubic hair may be safer for some people. I have suffered two Bartholin cysts so far and I would do pretty much anything to avoid another. (Google that at your own risk. I’ve never been in that much pain, and I’ve had two surgeries.)
Trimming /= shaving though. The implication of making women look like young girls by shaving creeps me out to no end.
I am not comfortable with blaming porn for people’s poor and unrealistic attitudes toward sex…that would be like blaming pro-wrestling for violence amongst kids.
Everyone knows that porn just like pro-wrestling is fake…um…maybe…nevermind…I can’t believe that people cannot seem to realize that the images of sexuality as portrayed in porn are realistic. But yes there are idiots out there who believe that porn is real, just like some idiots believe pro-wrestling is real.
But I really don’t think porn is to blame for the current trend of completely shaving off ones pubic hair. For that I blame Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. Truthfully, all hints of any sort of pubic hair in their swimsuit models started to vanish in the early 80′s, a time when porn star’s still have pubic hair.
But how do you explain my wife’s observations that there’s been a really marked trend in the last few years, a period coinciding pretty much perfectly with the rise of easily accessible (and free) porn online? Because if you read my earlier post, you’ll see that she said that there wasn’t a noticeable trend circa 2006-7?
Obviously, this is anecdata - she’s not formally recording her findings in any way, and I suspect it would be thoroughly unethical if she were to do so. But this is nonetheless a trend that she’s peculiarly well placed to examine, since she examines so many women from all walks of life on such a regular basis.
I agree with you that blaming porn as the single definite cause is flawed for all sorts of reasons (not least because once it becomes a cultural trend spurred by peer pressure, you get people shaving down there who’ve never seen a porn film in their lives), but I really don’t think that it’s down to Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition either. At least not in Britain.
The trend evolved gradually and crossed national borders obviously. I believe that it started with the advent of the thong bikini and the Brazilian Wax.
When I was young, some would would trim so they could wear a more skimpier bikini, such trimming styles as the Landing Strip as it was called became popular then gradually all signs of pubic hair disappeared. The thinking went that if you wanted to look good in your new swimsuit this summer, then you better trim.
@drst
TMI warning: explicit porn stuff
I can see where Whetherby is coming from. One thing to bear in mind is that many (if not virtually all) allosexual* teenagers start watching porn from a young age. And over time, especially if they haven’t had any consensual sexual experiences with other people, they can internalize quite a few messages from porn even though they understand that it’s all acting. Of course, there are many exceptions, and porn is hardly the only negative influence on sexuality, but it still matters.
That’s because porn tends to impose a set of sexual ideals (for lack of a better term) on the people who watch it. Certain camera techniques are used to alter the appearance of female porn stars’ bodies, make the cis male porn star’s penis look much larger than it really is, etc. And then there are bizarre ideas like “squirting” being the One True Sign of a “good” cis woman’s orgasm.
Sure, there are some unrealistic attitudes about sex that aren’t necessarily from porn, such as the notion that penis size is the Most Important Thing Ever, but certainly porn has exacerbated those attitudes.
*That’s the antonym of asexual.
@Wetherby. I agree this is a growing trend and a concerning one.
In my twenties no one gave a damn about whether or not I took a lawnmower to my lady garden, though I would occasionally encounter girls who admitted to all over pruning and it seemed like an odd thing to do.
But over the years I’ve noticed objection to body hair becoming a thing with guys. Like men who say they wouldn’t go down on a girl who wasn’t shaved.
I’m somewhat relieved to be out of the game on that score.
It’s probably porn, I’m not going to deny that. I learned in psych class that most fetishes are actually learned, even in animals. In one experiment, they “trained” male quails to choose felt cubes for sex than an actual female quail in mating position.
Also porn probably has a lot to do with the “bigger is better” attitude towards penis size. Bigger ones just look better on camera, also it allows for more interest. Like people will be more interested with the words “whopper” or “huge” than just “dick”. This isn’t just the idea of bigger being more pleasurable, but also more masculine.
As far as shaving, it makes sense, since it’s easier to see on film, but the standard might have already been there. I remember reading about how when Klimt painted women, people HATED him because he kept he pubes on them. They thought it was too vulgar.
I watched a lot of porn for a long time, and while most of it is fantasy, I could certainly see how younger virgin people pick up things from it. I’m not really anti-porn though, besides the misogyny in most of it(though I’ve noticed some mainstream types becoming way more women friendly).
Have you guys heard of this: http://www.cracked.com/article_15725_the-10-steps-to-porn-addiction-where-are-you.html
I read this and I realized that porn is probably like cheesecake, it’s nice once in a while, but if you’re only eating that you will hate “real” food. I’m talking about porn without overt misogyny, btw.
Basically, it makes you bad at real sex. And addicted. I know that sounds silly, but I’m trying to give it up now and it’s like way harder than I expected(my first try lasted like 4 days, but to be fair I forgot). I’m just giving it up so I can see how it effects real sex.
Remember the “oral is impossible” conversation with a certain stupid troll (I’m not naming him) and the Pierre comic it inspired?
The blurbs to these things also seem to push the idea that this huge penis will hurt/punish the woman and that that’s what sex is all about.
I had something like this happen to me. This was when I was an undergrad. I was in the classroom with my fellow students waiting for class to start. This guy was drawing something, it looked good, and I was about to even say something about it when he turned to me (we were all sitting in a circle) and said, “I know you hate me. Don’t even pretend that you could possibly like someone like me, you stupid selfish bitch.” I didn’t hate this guy - I had always been friendly to him. I was shocked. For a long time I wondered what I had done to give him that impression - but then I realized that he was probably actually projecting and that he most likely hated me instead.
I just remember the biting hatred in his words when he said that me. I felt that same way reading this message.
I think the most pernicious thing about porn with regards to sexual performance is that, to someone inexperienced, it is very very easy to make the assumption that “looks good in porn” = “feels good in real life”.
Porn will usually try to make everything as visible as possible. So there’s an emphasis on positions where you can see the penis, see the vulva, see the clit, and see the breasts. There’s very little full body contact.
But that stuff is often not what actually feels the best. For me anyway, body contact is very very important. And you can tell when a lover has been unduly influenced by porn, because they don’t touch your body, but make a bee-line to the naughty bits.
Actually, he was most likely projecting hatred for HIMSELF onto you.
I’ve mentioned before that I dipped pretty heavily into the whole “Nice Guy” mindset in the past. It’s a very self-centered attitude that can trap people in their own fantasies and nightmares.
(Deletes a long emotional glurge)
Let’s just say that I’ve been there. I’ve never fallen that deep into the hole, but I can see where he’s coming from from where I’d been.
It’s no excuse for his behaviour towards you, though.
I just saw this . Hmmm maybe they can exclude their mothers and realize her “in ways he will never know ” sacrifice and work ,because they don’t want to fuck their moms ?
And yes that was partly my point .I don’t know of any work that men do FOR women ONLY .And in the occupations they may have that are more high risks 1st they get PAID 2nd I can’t even think of any occupation like that ,that MEN don’t also benefit from .Including firemen.
That’s why he had to say “in ways we will never know” because there is nothing to know.
It has to be “shrouded” in mystery that way I suppose all the women will say …hmm…”men” are doing all these for ME and thanklessly . I have no idea what these things are ,but HE said they are so WE women just better show how thankful we are to “men! ” Otherwise they may just get to tired and stop doing whatever it is they are doing that I will never know about.
Quoted for truth. And my wife and I often comment (sometimes mid-act!) about the massive gulf between actual lovemaking between a couple who are totally into one another and nobody else, and two porn stars who are performing for the gaze of a third party (the camera, and the ultimate viewer). Most of our favourite real-life positions simply wouldn’t work on camera: there’d be nothing to see.
I am not going to argue that porn doesn’t deliver the wrong message about human sexuality because I think that it does, just as pro-wrestling delivers a wrong message about masculinity and violence, porn delivers a message that is unrealistic because like pro-wrestling…it is fake.
In both genres we see people treat each other like baggage being handled by baggage-handlers at LAX without consequences…the violence in both genres have to no effect but in real life it just does not work out that way. We see unrealistic portrayals of what a man is and what a women is…in both genres. I am very sure that these portrayal do effect how the way people who actually do believe there is some reality these fictions think.
But has a witness to certain cultural changes (I am an old guy), I cannot blame porn for the whole shaving thing, it was there before. The first people I had seen who were completely shaved were not porn workers but women in my social circles, and this was back in the early 80′s and they did it because of certain fashion trends of the day. The fashion industry has had more of an effect on how women view their own bodies than porn ever has.
I don’t know how I’ve been so fortunate because the vast majority of men’s attitudes towards pubic hair on women I’ve seen expressed are derogatory but I’ve NEVER had a male partner respond negatively to my pubic hair. I don’t know how that can be, given the vast majority of attitudes I see expressed by men regarding the matter are very, very negative. It’s either not mattered to everyone I’ve had sex with or they’ve liked it though.
What I find super sad is most of the attitudes I hear from women on the issue of pubic hair on women reflect those of most men - it’s gross, it’s uncomfortable, it makes you sweat, it’s dirty, it’s unhealthy, it’s masculine, etc. This coming from the same women who tell me they remove pubic hair for themselves, because it’s their preference, not because of what anyone else thinks. They’re completely blind to the reality their “preference” is based entirely on other people’s bigoted, ignorant opinions about their genitals.
Both QFT. Louis and I don’t compare, because we don’t watch porn, but I much, much prefer full body contact to any other position. We’re not interested in sex for its own sake; we’re making love sexually. (He always says everything we do is making love, whether sex is involved or not.)
“There’d be nothing to see” reminds me of a line from Oliver’s Travels, where Oliver asks in some horror “Do we look like that?” and Diane says “I expect so. We’ve four buttocks between us, I suppose they heave in the regulation fashion.”
TMI warning
This. I had one partner who was into rougher porn and he didn’t understand that breasts hurt if you pull or squeeze them too much.
He didn’t realize that that wasn’t “normal” porn, and was completely shocked when I told him that women don’t really get pleasure from it because it’s sort of painful, unless in a kinky way. He was not into kinks so he stopped, because it turned *him* off.
Another partner said the same thing, like that he liked “normal” porn, but he actually did like more “normal” porn. He was totally different in bed, and his preferences. Not that he didn’t pick up some ideas. By “normal” porn I mean it was usually pretty equal in who got shown on camera, the partners attractiveness and body type were relatively equal, and there weren’t any explicit or implied kinks.