>How to get downvoted on The Spearhead: Internet Dating Edition
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| Spearhead readers: Not actually as cool as Fonzie. |
When sites enable users to upvote and downvote comments and posts, the rationale is generally that it improves discussion and filters out trolls. In practice, this is almost never the case; instead, the up and down arrows offer the majority a way to reward those who simply rehash the party line and punish those who dare suggest anything even remotely challenging. This punishment is accentuated on sites on which dissenters who are downvoted beyond a certain threshold see their comments literally vanish, unless readers click a special link to make them visible again.
We’ve seen in the past the sorts of things that get massively upvoted on The Spearhead. A comment suggesting that “a woman’s vagina/body is her one and only asset” got, at last count, 58 upvotes and only 4 downvotes. Comments suggesting that women are “parasites,” “dumb as bricks,” incapable of logic or empathy each got dozens of upvotes and only a handful of downvotes, as did comments suggesting that women should never have been given the right to vote. Heck, one recent comment suggesting that Daniel Hernandez was “a traitor to men” for helping to save Gabrielle Giffords’ life got twice as many upvotes as downvotes. (As I pointed out in a recent post, there were actually a number of comments in that vein; they all got more upvotes than downvotes)
So if these sorts of comments get upvoted, the question arises: what sort of horrible, beyond-the-pale nuttiness actually invites downvotes on the site? Well, in a recent guest posting there, someone calling himself Big Daddy From Cincinnati offered some (not really very good) internet dating advice for the misogynist masses. Along the way he opined that “women are amoral creatures, flakes, and they will reject you for anything, everything, nothing, the phase of the moon, or who knows what. They will lead you on and waste your time … . ”
While most commenters seemed to agree with this characterization of the ladies, one anonymous gal suggested instead that:
Yep, you can practically hear the Spearhead guys furiously downvoting that bit of heresy. What an outlandish opinion, clearly the work of an evil, misandrist troll! Probably a lesbian, too. I mean, what kind of crazy man-hating monster would she have to be not to be utterly smitten by the Spearhead men?
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Posted on January 24, 2011, in evil women, misogyny, PUA, reactionary bullshit, the spearhead, vaginas. Bookmark the permalink. 130 Comments.
>"you'll be happier if you stop blaming women for all your problems." You know what? You're absolutely right.Blaming women for feminism, female entitlement, etc. is like blaming the rain for a leaky roof.We civilized, soft, sensitive men created that roof. And now we're paying the price for it.
>switchintoglide said… @nicko81m'Many women these days believe just owning a pussy and having a nice set of legs makes them this instant winning prize. While on the contrary, they complain about being objectified and only liked because of their looks.'Are you basing this on emprical evidence? Have you ever actually spoken to a woman? January 24, 2011 7:58 PM What should this nonsense talk, switchintoglide?For sure, a good-looking woman has a much easier life than any ordinary man. For this we need no empirical evidence. A pretty young woman is never lonely, never out of money, has no problem to find a considerable number of men, who will offer accomodation, car, travels and otherwise support. Of course men are looking after her all the time, but how can this disturb her? Your problem is obviously that you want both.Men should not look after women, but they should always pay and pay and pay with nothing in return….Well you cannot have it both… sorry. Any woman has the better life, as men are looking after her and you need not do anything about it as a female. Just waiting and see who is showing up.It's much harder for most ordinary men, believe me. Men cannot expect to be supported by females. No pretty female ever showed up in my life and told me hey, nice man, come with me, I have a house, car, good income, just stay with me…
>I have no idea if I speak for anyone else here. Probably not, as I am much too politically incorrect and libertarian to ever be considered a feminist male. I dislike earnestness in all its forms, consider affirmative action to be the work of the devil, and make no apologies whatsoever for finding Natalie Portman more attractive than Queen Latifah. I do not despise my natural male urges, desires and biology, and it will be a snowy day in hell before I sit down to piss as opposed to using a urinal. What I deeply despise are delusional cretins who – when God was handing out the basic self-knowledge – were queuing up for third helpings of whiny self-pitying bitterness. This particular demographic is represented in all sections of society without exception. But from everything I have read and seen, it is quite extraordinarily over-represented in the men’s rights movement. On the subject of nondescript women being ridiculously entitled in the dating sphere (and once more, I speak for nobody but myself here). I know perfectly well that there are many extremely plain and unexceptional women who mysteriously believe themselves entitled to a Simon Cowell or a George Clooney. However, this does not change the fact that there are also many extremely plain and unexceptional – also socially maladroit, obsessively misogynistic and blood-curdlingly disturbing – men who believe they are entitled to a Scarlett Johanssen. As so often, the Onion says it best. http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-woman-refuse-to-lower-standards-for-each-other,1492/And unlike the plain delusional women - who will generally seek solace in Haagen Dazs and ghastly Jennifer Aniston films when rebuffed - the plain delusional men will often become extremely vicious and disturbing when they fail to acquire their very own Playboy-worthy uberbabe.The MRA appear to believe that any man who disagrees with them is a cringing, brainwashed eunuch who naively thinks all women are perfect goddesses to be worshipped. I unambiguously do not believe this. In my experience of life, many women are delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. However, many men are also delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics. This is why I dislike the MRA movement, the Spearhead, and the self-styled-guru likes of Roissy and Roosh. They think the women are always ‘the bad guys.’ They’re not.
>Yohan, can you find me one woman posting here - or, hey, anywhere - who thinks that 'Men should not look after women, but they should always pay and pay and pay with nothing in return'? There are some women who are shallow gold-diggers. (I've never met any personally, but I can believe they're out there.)There are some other women - many, many women, most women - who don't go into relationships to get money and cars. I've never heard a man say 'hey, nice woman, come with me, I have a house, car, good income, just stay with me…', and I'd find it a bit creepy and weird if he did - I have my own good income, and my own house, and if I wanted a decent car I'd go and buy one myself, thanks. That's not what I want in a relationship. That's not what most of us want in a relationship. (If you find this hard to believe, you might want to try listening to what women actually say, rather than what men tell you about what women say.)It's irrational to assume that if some women think A, and other women think B, then all women simultaneously think A and B and want it both ways. We're not the Borg, dude.
>citizenlemonade"In my experience of life, many women are delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. However, many men are also delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics."All very true. But maybe that isn't really the point. Have you considered the possibility that it's not really about 'good' vs. 'evil' but instead their evil vs. our evil?
>"It's irrational to assume that if some women think A, and other women think B, then all women simultaneously think A and B and want it both ways." It's irrational to assume that if some women prefer anal sex and other women prefer vaginal sex then all women want it both ways simultaneously. Had to do it.lol
>Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics.This is why I dislike the MRA movement, the Spearhead, and the self-styled-guru likes of Roissy and Roosh. They think the women are always ‘the bad guys.’ They’re not.I think that there are many, men and women, who hold the same humble opinion as yourself. Hell, I even think that we do each other great injustice by calling ourselves "opposite sexes", we're NOT polar opposites; which is NOT to say that we're identical, either. The issues that I have with MRAs includes just THAT, their dichotomous (and often contradictory) trains of thought.
>citizenlemonade said… In my experience of life, many women are delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. However, many men are also delusional, unpleasant, entitled, unattractive fools. Vanity, cruelty, amorality, stupidity, deceit, selfishness, arrogance and greed are, in my humble opinion, not gender-specific characteristics. This is why I dislike the MRA movement… OK, this is a very interesting statement, you explain to all of us that there are MANY bad women and MANY bad men, but it seems you dislike ONLY the MRA movement and not feminism. Somewhat single-sided opinion…isn't it?
>No pretty female ever showed up in my life and told me hey, nice man, come with me, I have a house, car, good income, just stay with me… Just hazarding a guess here, but perhaps the pretty females who have a house, car, good income, etc., aren't looking for a man who is a "traditionalist" or a patriarch, but, rather, one who will view them as a companion…..an equal partner.
>evilmalewhiteempire:If it’s not about ‘good versus evil but instead about ‘their evil versus our evil’ - then I quite agree that there would be an interesting debate to have along these lines. As I said, I am not the most politically correct of men. And I quite agree that – painting in the broadest and most general strokes – women and men both have separate areas in which they outdo the other in evil. As any high school teacher will tell you, the vast majority of severe physical violence is the province of boys. The vast majority of long-term emotional and psychological germ warfare is the province of girls. But it would be impossible to have this sort of debate with the vast majority of MRAs I have come across. For here, I run into another major issue I have with – not all, but many – MRA types. Who will furiously and blindly deny that their side is anything less than blameless, put-upon and heroic at all times. If a woman chooses a bad man, it’s because she’s a hypergamous bitch. If a man chooses a bad woman, it’s because he’s been duped by a hypergamous bitch. If a man abuses, lies to and deceives a woman, it’s high five, player. If a woman abuses, lies to and deceives a man, it’s burn the evil whoring slut at the stake. If a man follows his basic and brutal Darwinian nature to attract the youngest and most beautiful woman, he is a master of Game and a legend. If a woman follows her basic and brutal Darwinian nature to attract the richest and most powerful man, she is a hateful piece of trash. I simply cannot engage with people who have such ridiculous double standards and are so abjectly blind to their own shortcomings. As I have said before, some women are frankly scum. As are some men. But those last four words represent an admission that you will never find on any MRA-friendly blog in the world. In terms of comparing the genders’ good and bad points… in the MRA, I see an obsessive and endless focus on masculinity’s (highly generalized and in no way all-encompassing) good traits, combined with a complete and dangerous blindness to its less savoury ones. You cannot have it both waysFor example, if you wish to preen about your gender’s superior size, strength and physical fortitude, you cannot then claim that you are exactly as physically threatened by the prospect of domestic violence as those fragile little ladies you were recently dismissing as too weak and wimpish to serve in the police force. Or do anything more physically taxing than making you a cup of tea.But perhaps we will never agree. I don’t think of myself as a feminist. Simply a humanist and a realist. Many people out there are extremely unpleasant and cannot be trusted. Men and woman alike. Attempt to avoid them. The end. Yohan: I am sorry to hear you think my dislike is one-sided. On the contrary, I dislike all selfish vindictive self-aggrandising bullies consumed with bitterness, violent fantasies of control and humiliation, and obsession with denying the basic humanity of others. Please direct me to a feminist blog where feminist commentators openly gloat about destroying men’s self-esteem, share the joys of deliberately using and abusing them wherever possible, laughingly objectify them as good for only one thing, and delight in the prospect of their desperate washed-up old age once they have served their dumpster-like purpose. If you could provide me with the address of such a site, I solemnly swear I will say exactly the same things to them, and with exactly as much heartfelt contempt as I have shown towards your MRA ilk. That is a promise.
>I'm a fat and ugly woman. I've been told that I need to lower my standards. I've had guys tell me that I'm a bitch because I won't date them. That because I'm fat and ugly I should be thankful for anything that comes along.Here's the thing- even though I'm unattractive I also have a full life. I volunteer at a historical movie house giving tours. I go to museums. I am going to school and working. If I'm going to give up some of my time to start a relationship I expect the other person to be more fun and interesting than whatever I could be doing by myself.Most men (especially the ones who would lower themselves to be interested in someone who looks like me) aren't. They are entitled. They complain all the time. They have no passions or interests. Many of them are unemployed or have never worked more than a part time job. That isn't important because I'm a gold digger. It's important because people need to contribute something to the world. When one of these guys ask me out and I decline they get upset. I'm sure they probably tell their friends that I'm a princess or a brat. They might think that I'm holding out for an alpha male. I'm not. I'm holding out for myself. I'd rather take the energy that I'd spend in a relationship and dedicate it to things I care about. There is nothing enjoyable about spending time with someone who is dull and uninteresting just so that you aren't alone.
>@DarkSideCat If you don't mind me asking, are you Haudenosaunee (Iroquois)?
>missy, exactly. What I see with women is that they don't want the alcoholic, or the dumb male. Or you're just on such a different intellectual plane that you would be unhappy. The "standards" conversation is again an apples and oranges conversation between the genders in my experience and lemonade dude posted an onion article that does not at all represent what really happens. They left out the part where the guy is a raging alcoholic that doesn't even really like women, doesn't understand them and expects them to be a certain way, very limited. When men won't "lower" their standards, they most of the time are openly admitting it's as deep as "no fat chicks"Then they get the bright idea, that HEY wow, I've been a fool, I'll go for one of these and they will be desperate. Ok that might work, but not if you're really dumb and they are different. I haven't had men mad at me for turning them down, most guys just shuffle on. There's plenty out there. I am getting married after a loooooong time being single, and it boils down to "no jerks around the kids" and now I'm almost forty and know a good man when I meet one, so this is awesome. And this guy is actually one of those "nice guys" that these guys claim to be, too. But that's all I ought to say on the internet.
>citizenlemonade said… If a woman chooses a bad man, it’s because she’s a hypergamous bitch. If a man chooses a bad woman, it’s because he’s been duped by a hypergamous bitch. …..I simply cannot engage with people who have such ridiculous double standards …..The situation is not so balanced as you try to present it.How can a simple man 'choose' a Western woman? Look around and you will see, that young men outnumber young women in the dating scene 6:1 or so. Women have the choice to select among many men, and frequently are giving their preference to men who are either rich playboys promising love-for-always-BS and have plenty of women running after them all the time or they are choosing thug-boys, as ordinary men are just too boring for them.There are plenty of 'just ordinary' men, who despite long working hours and without a criminal record are neither thugs nor rich playboys - but they are never considered even for a friendly talk or for sharing a few nice hours.To blame these men with feminist shaming language is exactly what we MRAs strongly reject. The choice is with the woman and I can only advice her to choose more carefully among all these men around her using other criterias for her decision. Many people out there are extremely unpleasant and cannot be trusted. Men and woman alike. Attempt to avoid them. The end.Unfortunately it's not 'the end' - at least not for these many men who were badly cheated by malicious women.Not only were these men cheated, but because of single-sided law execution, they have to pay the bill. Often over decades. - Women do not have this risk. No obligations whatever. If women do not want to continue a relationship, they move on - easy - to the next man… as you said, the end or better, next please…About websites considering truly everything to be bad regarding men's rights, what about reading through all these threads of this David's blog?David's menboobz-blog is an entire scornful spoof about all and everything which you might consider as MRA-related issues.
>missyb9479 said… I'm a fat and ugly woman. (WHY?)I've been told that I need to lower my standards. (WHY?) I've had guys tell me that I'm a bitch because I won't date them. That because I'm fat and ugly I should be thankful for anything that comes along. Why to lower your standards? Why do you not try to improve yourself? You are not far away from that, let me say as you are openly admitting, that you are 'fat and ugly'.Do you enjoy your present appearance? Not really it seems to me when reading your comment.So, why are you not doing anything to improve your own looks? It is not difficult for a woman to improve her figure and her looks, if she really wants to do that.There is plenty of beauty/health care + advice for women available if you really want to do something about yourself. - Unfortunately for men who want to improve their health and looks, that's a different story.
>Men can't improve their health and looks? Are feminists stopping them for doing that too? Go to the gym, stop smoking and drinking, eat better.Done. Read Men's Health if you need motivation.
>@yohan,"There is plenty of beauty/health care + advice for women available if you really want to do something about yourself. - Unfortunately for men who want to improve their health and looks, that's a different story."That is just ridiculous nonsense. I can't even believe someone would try to use this to try to gain sympathy for men as the poor victims of EVERYTHING. LMAO!Yohan…if someone doesn't allow you to access the many available resources for men's health and looks, that would be a problem in your personal life and not a problem that ALL women have caused you.
>Yohan, missyb9479 has found someone who likes her even without changing the way she looks or how much she weighs. She can be relatively sure that this guy won't decide in two years that she's gotten fat and ugly and that was all he cared about and he's leaving now.Why should she change to attract more men if she's found one? Fat is just fat. Maybe she's okay with it.
>Yep. When I was single, super models wouldn't date me either. It was totally unfair. I blame feminism.Seriously, though, being single and feeling undesirable totally sucks, whether you're male or female. I get that. I spent a lot of time in that space myself-years, in fact. And, yes, I descended briefly into bitterness at womankind for not appreciating the awesomeness that was me. The fact is, a lot of women are shallow, stupid, and neurotic-as are a lot of men. Finding someone to share your life with is hard, frustrating, lonely work. Maintaining a relationship can be just as hard. There really aren't any shortcuts here. But I'll tell you one thing that absolutely will not work: blaming someone else for your troubles. Seriously, get over that shit right now, or you will be alone, and miserable, forever. Yeah, I know, feminists do it all the time, western women, blah, blah, blah… Even if that's true, who the fuck cares? You are ultimately responsible for your own life. If you don't like it, do something about it. Look inside yourself, take inventory, ruthlessly evaluate your strengths and weaknesses, go the therapy, try to improve yourself-whatever it takes, as long as you're not hurting anyone else. But whining on the internet about how unfair it all is will get you exactly nowhere.
>hahaha did anyone else notice this…?"an apples and oranges conversation between the genders in my experience and lemonade dude posted an onion article"haha, I did that and didn't notice. I'm not fat by the way.
>I am still single. But I've had relationships with various degrees of success. Like most people. But I am happy with myself and have no real need to change.The fat and ugly terms are things I've been told by men. Usually right before they tell me how I could be pretty if I only lose weight, wear heels, dye my hair, wear more makeup (or less makeup). In other words, I'd be acceptable if I could just be someone else. I spent many years of my life trying to attain this. Now I've accepted the fat and ugly labels because it makes my life easier. If I posted a picture I suspect half the people would agree with those labels and half wouldn't. Because they really are meaningless terms. Ones that get thrown around to degrade women by making it seem as their bodies are the only important thing about them.My reason for posting this wasn't to get into a debate over my own looks. It was to point out what was on the other side of these MRA rantings. I've been the girl that these guys talk about when they talk about fat princesses who reject them. I wanted to point out that women like me aren't rejecting them because we are heartless evil creatures. We just have better things to do with our time.The fact that Yohan thinks that women have a chance for growth while men don't is one of the most telling things I've ever seen. Insight into the mind of an MRA. Women have all the power and men are helpless. At least in their own minds.
>Captain Bathrobe said… "nicko81m:Heavy women with average looks need love, too. Why do you put yourself above them?"Why don't you date them? You have no room to talk if you shun or ignore them.
>@wytch"Captain Bathrobe said… "nicko81m:Heavy women with average looks need love, too. Why do you put yourself above them?"Why don't you date them? You have no room to talk if you shun or ignore them."That gives me room to talk (given my dating history), and I agree with @cb.
>Wytch:Because my wife might object. She's funny like that.
>Seriously, though, the point was that both men and women have standards about whom they wish to date. Nothing wrong with that. We may not like their standards, may not agree with them, may think they are silly and superficial, but everyone has the right to have them. Nick was complaining how "unfair" it is that women only want to date men who are "above" them (a group that presumably doesn't include him). My point is that "fair" doesn't enter into it. Nick (apparently) wants a certain type of woman. These women (apparently) do not want him. Sucks to be him, but no reasonable person would call this "unfair." It would only be unfair if men were the only one's allowed to have standards about whom they are attracted to-and that would be grossly unfair in and of itself.Nick is perfectly free to lower or change his standards; he's also free to try what he can to make himself a more attractive choice for a mate. What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet. I mean, whatever floats your boat; at least it keeps you off the streets. But I doubt it will accomplish much more than that.
>Well as feminists/women constantly tell men to improve themselves if they want better women, I don't see the problem with men telling fat women to improve their weight if they want better men. It's a two way street.Captain Bathrobe"What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet."It always cracks me up how feminists in here try to twist our meanings into stuff balloon animals.Can you please point out where I exactly express that I want women to accept me as a sex partner against her will?Seriously, this accusation is hilariously ridiculous. It's just another poor straw man attempt to claim that women are being victimized ROFLThis is no surprise from feminists
>Also Captain Bathrobe; the whole point that you are simply missing here is that there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses.These same women don't seem to be offering any more than most average women AND MEN. These same women don't seem to have any thing unique about them compared to most average women AND MEN.Yet, these same women claim that most of the male population are not decent enough for them.It's as clear as day of who has the problem here. It's definitely not most of these men. It's these women who ridiculously over price themselves. Just because they do get plenty of offers, it gives these women a big head and they get delusional grandeur over it. The reason why these women get plenty of offers is because many to most of the other women are practically doing the same, it’s a vicious cycle that keeps repeating it’s self. These women are waiting to find Mr Unique who is extra intelligent and interesting than most . But these women refuse to acknowledge what imagine/characteristics appears in the mirror. In many cases, Mr Unique does lower his standards for these plain average women as women in Mr Unique’s league have even more extreme standards than the average woman.I see so many women who express that in social gatherings a guy doesn't seem interesting and intelligent enough in conversations but these same women usually put in the same effort themselves or even a lot less.I also see many women on dating sites who claim that they are not interested in many men because their profiles and emails are not sparking and dynamic. Yet these same women have small profiles that are no where near original or show any form of above average intelligence. That said, nearly every woman who has sent the first email to me or have replied my emails have not made much effort in their emails. These same women will reject men for all the same things they are simply doing.The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy.That’s pretty much the story of a large percentage of western women these days. They live off this huge senses of entitlement and many to most times they finally get these entitlements that they really don’t deserve.
>Hahaha Nick,Bathrobe: "What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet."Nick: I don't do this!Nick five minutes later: Women over price themselves! I hate it! Whine!
>"Nick five minutes later: Women over price themselves! I hate it! Whine!"Yes, Sandy. Just because a woman has a pussy and a nice looking face, it doesn't make her a jackpot
When it comes to gender issues, as political correctness always swings in favour of the fanny, this side of the story is taboo to mention. The PC people in this department will simply scoff at these truths that are obvious and right in your face
>"That’s pretty much the story of a large percentage of western women these days. They live off this huge senses of entitlement and many to most times they finally get these entitlements that they really don’t deserve."If they don't deserve it then how did they get it? In a free market of relationships, the price they get *is* their worth, by definition.
>Nick,My apologies. I didn't meant to accuse you of forcing-or wanting to force-anyone to do anything. I was speaking-what's the word?-hypothetically. Just as you hypothetically have the right to lower your standards or improve yourself, you do not (hypothetically again) have the right to force someone to have sex with you. I'm glad that you accept this hypothetical proposition, and that you do not wish to force women to have sex with you against their will. Good on you. In future, I will include the word "hypothetically" whenever I make such a statement, so that you are not confused by this obscure rhetorical device. I apologize if I was unclear.As Sandy pointed out, the only I intended to accuse you of was whining, which you continue to do. That's your right, just as it's my right to point it out-and just as it's the right of women (and men) to over-price themselves in the dating market. By the way, I don't deny that some women do this. My only response is "so what?" How does that hurt you? No one is obligating you (hypothetically) to date them. I mean, it's unfortunate that you (hypothetically, as I don't know this for sure)are not able to date the women of your choice, but surely the fact that you are (hypothetically) alone is not entirely the fault of overly choosy women? Do you not bear some small sliver of responsibility for your (hypothetical) predicament? Work with me here. All snark aside, you seem unhappy in your current situation and for that I have genuine empathy. Really. As I wrote upthread, I've been there before, and it's not fun. Accepting some measure of responsibility could be the first step up. The choice is yours. Just sayin. Also, if what I've said does not apply to you-and you are, in fact, happy as a clam-please disregard. Consider it all hypothetical.
>"If they don't deserve it then how did they get it? In a free market of relationships, the price they get *is* their worth, by definition." How do they get it? Because plenty of men in any status are forced to drop their standards unless they are lucky. Men in general are the second class citizens in the dating pool. As people seem to slam men who express that a lot of fault is on women, it's disturbing how a woman can publicly express that the reasons why she is finding it hard to settle is because it's hard to find a decent single man. In other words it's the fault of the men. A woman will hardly get criticised for this or seen as someone who is a pathetic whiner.It's only politically incorrect when the criticism and fault finding is directed at women
>Nick: there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses.Assuming this is true, so what? How is this your business? These women aren't obligated to date any man, even if you think the men they're rejecting are better than her. People are allowed to reject whoever they want, for whatever reason they want, even if you find these reasons stupid. The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy.I sort of love the notion of a farting pedestal. Alas, this is a bit too long for a t-shirt.
>"I see so many women who express that in social gatherings a guy doesn't seem interesting and intelligent enough in conversations but these same women usually put in the same effort themselves or even a lot less."So? I'm one of those women. I will not date a guy because they aren't interesting. I like to think that I am fun and interesting myself. That I'm worth waiting for that interesting guy. Maybe I'm not. But I'd rather be single than with someone who doesn't match that standard. "I also see many women on dating sites who claim that they are not interested in many men because their profiles and emails are not sparking and dynamic. Yet these same women have small profiles that are no where near original or show any form of above average intelligence. That said, nearly every woman who has sent the first email to me or have replied my emails have not made much effort in their emails. These same women will reject men for all the same things they are simply doing."Again, so? So what? Women who do that will remain single. If they are tired of being single they will change their standards. "The point is that these women expect men to do most or all the ground work while they sit on their farting pedestals showered with attention and believe they shouldn't put in as much hard yards as the man because they have a pussy."No. Look, you could be talking about me in this statement. On dating sites I get more comments than I respond to. I have ignored guys because of lame first letters. It isn't because I think that my pussy gets me something. It's because I don't mind being single. I have a full life with lots of things going on. If I'm going to interrupt my life to have a relationship then I expect the guy will meet a certain level. That he'll be at least as fun and interesting as whatever it is that I'm going to be giving up in order to go out with him. This is the big difference between most people and the MRAs. Most of us are single and we are okay with it. We'd rather be in a relationship but we don't feel as if we are entitled to them. If we ask someone out and get rejected we get bummed out and might bitch to our friends. We don't join a movement that degrades a whole gender and fights against equality.
>"As people seem to slam men who express that a lot of fault is on women, it's disturbing how a woman can publicly express that the reasons why she is finding it hard to settle is because it's hard to find a decent single man. In other words it's the fault of the men. A woman will hardly get criticised for this or seen as someone who is a pathetic whiner."Speaking personally, I find whining to be equally unattractive in both men and women. I can't speak for others, however.
>hahahaNick: Avoids topic by claiming women have no value other than pussy/face.Man this guy is comedy gold.
>"It's because I don't mind being single. I have a full life with lots of things going on. If I'm going to interrupt my life to have a relationship then I expect the guy will meet a certain level. That he'll be at least as fun and interesting as whatever it is that I'm going to be giving up in order to go out with him."I think, missy, that you've hit on the essential prerequisite for having a successful dating and relationship experience: being completely, totally OK with being by yourself. Without that feeling, everything is driven by desperation, and bound to fail.
>So make a picture of it David.Not sure why Nick is complaining-are women not allowed to have standards?
>"Nick: there are women who I see everywhere in the real world and dating sites who remain single for a terribly long time.These same women have 100000000s of men interested in them. Yet not one of these men are good enough for these self proclaimed superior princesses."If women do what you describe then the result is that they will continue to be alone, that's the punishment. And if they would prefer to be alone than date you, why would you want to date them anyway? In a way, they are doing you a favor by not wasting either of your time. If I ask a man out of coffee or whatever, and he's like, Thanks for asking but I'm gay, or I'm married, or I don't really like the cut of your jib, anger would not be a justified reaction. He hasn't done anything for me to be angry about. @citizenlemonade: What's wrong with earnestness?
>Christine WE said…Yohan…if someone doesn't allow you to access the many available resources for men's health and looks, that would be a problem in your personal life and not a problem that ALL women have caused you. I did not say, it was caused by all women. But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only. Check out any department store what they offer for men and for women regarding clothings, shoes, cosmeticas etc. etc.The other point is about the TIME. If you work about 60 hours per week, what can you do about yourself? And feminist-minded housewife is even expecting the husband to go home immediately and to start with housework.Finally money is also a major point worth for discussion. Men are earning money not for themselves only, but in many cases their money is for alimony, child-support, debits left over for the legal fees after divorce etc. etc…In general, it's much easier for women to look after themselves than for men.
>Captain Bathrobe said… ….. Nick is perfectly free to lower or change his standards; he's also free to try what he can to make himself a more attractive choice for a mate. What he cannot do is force women to accept him as a sex partner against their will. And what he and the rest of you (rem. MRAs?) appear to be doing is simply whining about this on the internet. Feminists are talking to each other on the internet = female empowermentMRAs are talking to each other on the internet = whiningWhile Nick is perfectly free to lower his standards (thank you so much Mr./Mrs. Feminist for allowing this), it seems he is not politically correct when he is talking about his issues with other men.MRAs are not whining on the internet, but we see no reason to remain silent either - we are doing something about our problems. How we are solving our problems is not the feminists' business.Why should we lower ourselves and our standards? Only because feminists are telling us all the time how useless we are?
>David"Assuming this is true, so what? How is this your business? These women aren't obligated to date any man, even if you think the men they're rejecting are better than her. People are allowed to reject whoever they want, for whatever reason they want, even if you find these reasons stupid."This is true, however, a man is entitled to criticise something that he see's wrong. A man is simply entitled to disagree with how a woman thinks or believes in.As you were saying, "so what? How is this your business?"…the same can be said to feminists who criticise male sexuality on a constant basis which is a whole different story altogether.Elizabeth“Not sure why Nick is complaining-are women not allowed to have standards?”There is a difference between having validated standards than there is to put a ridiculous price tag on your self.missyb9479 The thing is that many women seem to think that they don't have to “try” (that much) to prove that they are extra interesting, extra intelligent etc etc compared to what they expect out of a man. They just think being a woman with average looks is solely all they need to do. Yet they will aggressively reject men with the same mentality they have themselves. In other words, many women expect men to loudly prove their worth while they think being a woman, they shouldn't have to do as much work. It's extremely chauvinistic when you think about it.All in all, the reason why I am making these criticisms is not because I am angry at being single, the simple fact is that I just call out on the BS I constantly see far too often.When ever a man makes these types of criticisms, there will always be people from the PC crowd who will come up with such shaming tactics towards the complainer such as “he’s just showing anger of being single” or “he’s complaining because he can’t get laid.”The simple fact is that there is a complaint because there is something legitimate to complain about.
>Yohan: But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only. So women get a lot more pressure from the media/society to look better and this, in your mind, is an example of men being oppressed?
>"In other words, many women expect men to loudly prove their worth while they think being a woman, they shouldn't have to do as much work. It's extremely chauvinistic when you think about it."No, it isn't. Let me see if I can explain this again. I know how interesting I am. I know what it is like spending a Friday night with myself. If you asked me on a date then you'd have to project an evening that is AT LEAST as much fun as I'd have by myself. Why go otherwise?Does that mean that I have to appear at least as interesting to you as you do to me? No. It's on the person asking the other person out to do the convincing. Male or female. If a girl is asking a guy out (BTW, this is one of the things feminism has done and continues to do - empower women to take the lead in courtship) then she should try and sell herself as best she can. If he isn't interested that's okay. She shouldn't get angry at him or at all men. I'll go one step more. If a female co-worker asked me to go out to lunch, as a friend, I might reject them if I didn't think they were interesting enough. It isn't sexism at all. It's human nature to only want to spend time with people who are fun and interesting. This is subjective. I don't know why you think this common human thing is so wrong. If a guy asked you out (just to hang out) but he didn't seem very interesting, would you hang out with him? Do you have a duty to do so just because you're equally uninteresting?
>@ Elizabeth: Women are allowed to have standards, they just aren't allowed to have standards that exclude Nick. @ Missy:You actually sound like a lot of fun!
>Missy: FWIW, my wife actually asked me out on our first date-and paid for dinner. Yay feminism!
>Lady Victoria von Syrus "Women are allowed to have standards, they just aren't allowed to have standards that exclude Nick."I am sorry that your comprehension skills towards my opinion in is seriously lacks knowledge to what I exactly mean.But of course, you are a feminist bigot. This repsonse is pretty typical
>Yohan – we may never agree. Possibly we may live in differently structured societies. The world I inhabit – a large city, the UK, socio-economically above average but far from elite – bears no resemblance whatsoever to the world you seem to live in. The idea that there are 6 single men to every single woman strikes me as utterly ridiculous. As does the concept that ordinary men cannot attract ordinary women, as the ordinary women are feverishly chasing after debonair yacht-owning billionaires and snarling Harley-driving clones of the young Marlon Brando. Every single reasonably eligible man of my acquaintance has had absolutely no trouble attracting a normal woman for a long-term partner. The caveat is that these normal women are not, by any stretch of the imagination, devastatingly beautiful Hollywood goddesses. They are, quite simply, normal women. I do not know, and have never known, any normal women whatsoever who spurn normal men as sexual partners or other halves. The allegedly ‘normal men’ I have known who claim this is the case generally have not been ‘normal men’ at all, but have had something fairly serious wrong with them - such as an alarming nervous tic, an amusing lisp or a pungent reek of urine. By aiming for a plain jane girl-next-door type, they are aiming significantly out of their league. Ironically, they would be ashamed to be seen out in public with any women who would plausibly give them the time of day without requiring payment. If all the women you know are chasing tycoons and muscle-bound thugs, you are mixing with altogether too many shallow, vapid, mercenary glamour models and table dancers, who would not give you the time of day unless you won the lottery. And are, if I may cast aspersions, very obviously members of the world’s oldest profession. Perhaps you should remove yourself from the glitzy shallow-eighteen-year-old-babe-infested nightclubs where you are quite pathetically out of place, and fish in a pool where you have more chance of catching something other than chlamydia. Meet some normal women who may be interested in a relationship with a normal man like yourself. Tragically, you probably will not find them attractive enough to pursue. Watch the first ten minutes of Shallow Hal and weep. His tragedy is your own.You also seem to have the pervasive MRA belief that women are always the ones to end their marriages. This concept is ridiculous on so many levels, I do not even know where to begin. Some men will callously desert their loving and bewildered dependents for another woman, will manage to conceal their assets with devious expertise, and will leave their erstwhile family to struggle by on a pittance while they take Wife 2 shopping in Christian Dior. Meanwhile, some women will manage to take their equally loving and bewildered husbands for every penny they can squeeze out of him, and leave him in penury working round the clock to provide for their lazy parasitical selves and their bastard spawn. I don’t deny this can happen. Yet, for every man left destroyed by a divorce he did not instigate or want, I put it to you that there is an equally hard-done-by woman. I have met some divorced single mothers whose lives are a living hell of expensive childcare, irregular maintenance payments that barely covered the bills, and juggling two jobs to keep food on the table. As with so many issues, the outcomes of divorce are not as cut-and-dried as you MRAs seem to believe. To put it bluntly, in some cases, the man gets well and truly shafted. In some other cases, the woman does. Again, perhaps I have been fortunate in life, and perhaps the legal system and socio-sexual norms simply work differently in this country. If this is the case, I have never been happier to be a Brit. The weather’s ghastly, but you can’t have it all.
>FWIW, Yohan is an older, married northern European living in Japan, which somehow doesn't stop him from making endless and supremely confident assertions about how dating works in the west, which he seem to be based in equal parts on what he reads on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum and his own strange fantasies.
>David Futrelle said… Yohan: But if you compare offers regarding beauty/health for women and men to improve your looks, then let me say at least 80 percent or more is for women, often for women only. So women get a lot more pressure from the media/society to look better and this, in your mind, is an example of men being oppressed? I said, it is much more difficult for men to use frequently the beauty/healthcare consumer market compared to women. Not enough time and not enough money play a major role, it is not because men do not want to take care of their own health and looks.If 80 percent of certain goods/services are produced/offered for women only - and men are widely ignored as possible consumers, it shows clearly that health/beauty business is a lucrative market mainly with female customers and not with male customers.Women earn so much less than men, I wonder how they pay for all this expensive stuff related to female beauty/health/fashion?
>citizenlemonade said… ….. Yohan – we may never agree. ….. The idea that there are 6 single men to every single woman strikes me as utterly ridiculous. …..Perhaps you should remove yourself from the glitzy shallow-eighteen-year-old-babe-infested nightclubs …..Meet some normal women ….You also seem to have the pervasive MRA belief that women are always the ones to end their marriages. This concept is ridiculous on so many levels, …..I don’t deny this can happen. Yet, for every man left destroyed by a divorce he did not instigate or want, I put it to you that there is an equally hard-done-by woman. …..perhaps I have been fortunate in lifeIf this is the case, I have never been happier to be a Brit. The weather’s ghastly, but you can’t have it all. Thank you for your interesting and informative reply. Not all men do have the same life and opportunities, some are more happier than the others obviously, and maybe you are right, you are on the lucky side. We cannot choose our parents.There are 100000s of disappointed Western men, who are not so lucky, you find them living overseas with foreign wives. The typical loser and his typical doormat in the stupid mindset of feminists.If you look up any internet dating service you will notice, that young men indeed outnumber young women 6:1 or even higher.Well, a man age 20, he can look for a girl about 20, but a young woman 20, can look for men at least up to 35 or 40…You mention you are living in a larger UK-city, but how would be the number of men:women in a rural area in UK? The same as in cities? I don't think so.Competition from older men is a serious problem for young men, who cannot offer much to a girl, tell me from where should they have all this money to pay for house, car, good life, travels etc. etc.? Young men can only do this with rich parents or as thugs who don't care about existing laws.About divorces, over 70 percent are requested by women and not by men. It's not 50/50 as you say.UK divorce laws are famous for being biased, with no pre-nups accepted.You did not mention in your reply that the financial risk is almost always with the man, hardly with the woman, especially in case of children. About myself I never met any Western woman in my life who did not demand money from me even for the smallest favor. I never visited night-clubs, btw. as I do not drink any alcohol, another reason to be a target of scorn by many Western females.I never met a woman who was truly a single and who had not a sexual relationship with several men at the same time and why should I line up, honestly?And if you ask me, where you can meet 'normal Western women' (what means 'normal women' for you, any definition for that?), I can only reply, after being married for over 35 years in Asia, that I have no idea and why shall I care. Btw., I was asking exactly the same question to many feminists. Where can I find a 'normal Western woman'? And not even one feminist could answer this question, but they continue explaining me something about my privileges. Which privileges? I don't see them. I never had any privilege because of my gender.
>David Futrelle said… FWIW, Yohan is an older, married northern European living in Japan, which somehow doesn't stop him from making endless and supremely confident assertions about how dating works in the west, which he seem to be based in equal parts on what he reads on NiceGuy's MGTOW forum and his own strange fantasies. January 26, 2011 4:21 AM I am not from *Northern* Europe, David.You need only to look up my profil etc. on the NiceGuy-Forum which you are browsing all the time using a fake-ID.About fantasies, well, what do you know about me, David?My life as a child and young man in Europe was not a fantasy, but for real and harsh personal experience with truly bad women.If there is a person, living in a fantasy world, it's you, David. I see no reason why I should be silent about it. For what reason? Because feminism cannot be wrong? Because it's not politically correct to talk about it in our own forums?
>I *HEART* citizenlemonade, especially this:"Many people out there are extremely unpleasant and cannot be trusted. Men and woman alike. Attempt to avoid them. The end." Bravo.
>FWIW, I've met and dated wonderful women in both the US and in Japan. And I'm a complete and total nerd-not an alpha by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just not convinced that blaming a whole class of people for one's own misfortunes is really the way to go in life. But, whatever, your mileage may vary.
>Also, I agree with citizenlemonade. Very well said, even if you are a libertarian.
>nicko81m: "There is a difference between having validated standards than there is to put a ridiculous price tag on your self."You seem to think women should be "priced" on the market based on the value you'd put on them, rather than on the value they put on themselves.Women aren't objects. They have self-determination. Apparently many men have come to terms with this and "meet their price" because they find something in these women that you don't.
>Lady Victoria-I think you did hit the nail on the head with that view of Nick's inexplicable hatred of a (in his view) plain Jane having standards as to who she will consent to go on a date with.
>"Women aren't objects. They have self-determination. Apparently many men have come to terms with this and "meet their price" because they find something in these women that you don't."I agree that women are not objects. On the other hand, the woman next door is not better than most of the male population.It's funny how feminists can't see that women are more valued than men in the dating market. Yet, feminists don’t want to know anything about this. It's only important when women are being treated as lesser human beings in some situation. Men are the second class citizens in the dating world. But feminists will deny that to the end as they are too bigoted to see past their own agenda
>Nick: "wah! I cannot get a date because some woman has a standard that is not me! wah!"I have a box of tissues and some ice cream, here ya go!
>nicko81m said… Men are the second class citizens in the dating world Not only in the Western dating world. Men are generally considered to be 2nd class citizens at any time and under any circumstances in all Western feminist countries - 2nd class as boys, as students, as singles, as married men, as men after divorce, as fathers, as being homeless, jobless, sick, in jail…always.