Men Going Their Own Way: Best and Worst Case Scenarios
MGTOW: Best-Case Scenario
Worst-Case Scenario:
Even-Worster-Case Scenario:
Also, it goes without saying, the entirety of MGTOWforums.com, NiceGuy’s MGTOW Forum, Happy Bachelors Forum.
Note: If you actually watch any of these worster-case videos, please go back to the best-case scenario video to remind yourself that there is hope for our world.
EDITED TO ADD: The fellows at MGTOWforums.com have responded to my post yesterday about them. Enjoy.
Like this:
Posted on June 8, 2012, in men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, oppressed men, oppressed white men. Bookmark the permalink. 139 Comments.
@Hesster: The intent is what matters.
No, no, it doesn’t.
Intent: it’s fucking magic.
Appropriation of Native American cultures.
Do you guys think the appropriative nature of mohawks makes them inherently racist, even if one is part of punk-rock subculture? (Not that punk subculture is free from racism in general…)
who is the piece of shit who flagged my video?
For what it’s worth*, I think it’s a fairly benign form of cultural appropiation. This sort of interchange happens all the time - cultures aren’t sealed hermetically against outside influences, and I would argue that they shouldn’t be. ‘Native American’ Halloween costumes? Yeah, that’s fucking racist. White people learning Japanese martial arts? Still technically cultural appropiation, but I would argue that it’s not inherently racist.
* Little going on nothing.
(My opinion being that ‘an appropiative nature doesn’t make a thing inherently racist’ because appropiation is a very broad term that covers everything from ‘Japense people celebrating Christmas’ to ‘the white guy who wears a feather headdress, carries a tomahawk and says he is a medicine man’ - with mohawks being arguably in the former category. Arguably. I might be missing something important. This should have been in the previous post, I think.)
… and I’m sorry for the triple-post (no edit button!), but I should probably *also* note that I don’t want to claim to have any actual right to decide that mohawk haircuts are Certified Racism-Free. If anyone could actually begin to judge that, it’d be a member of the culture an element of which is being appropiated there. I’m trying to argue that context is REALLY important when it comes to those things, especially when it’s a comparatively privileged group doing the appropiation, but that appropiation is not INHERENTLY the same thing a racism.
“who is the piece of shit who flagged my video?”
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Oh the irony. You mean I can’t make hateful remarks about half of the human species without there being consequences? Why me no likey?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
@Armageddon
“who is the piece of shit who flagged my video?”
Thanks for the shaming, btw.
One of these things is not like the others.
I don’t have an intrinsic problem with someone simply wearing some item which is also part of another ethnic group’s traditional attire (it can definitely be problematic under some circumstances, to be clear, but I don’t have an intrinsic problem) but there’s a pretty important distinction between “wearing something from X culture” and “dressing up as a member of X culture.” When you treat “Native American” as being something comparable to “a gorilla” or “the red M&M” or “Superman” - just a silly costume you can put on for funsies - that is pretty damn racist and appropriative, in and of itself.
It’s my understanding — possibly imparted by racists — that the real (18th c.) tea party people dressed as Kanien’gehaga for symbolic rather than scapegoating reasons. The Flint People had a reputation for independence.
if what i said wasn’t true, why would yall get so upset? you have ZERO percent chance of ever stopping me from speaking the truth, ZERO.
I’m calling you a clueless asshole on purpose, if that’s what you mean.
This is technically true. Most people are against racism when it isn’t inconvenient and when it doesn’t prevent white people from doing things. When being against racism might prevent white people from doing something, then they’re generally not.
I noticed that. That was the stupid and racist thing you were trying to claim, it was not lost on me.
Like when the US government did not intend to hurt the Native Americans, just take them away from their homes and intentionally act to completely destroy their culture because it would save them from themselves?
Gosh, it’s almost as if I am saying this isn’t true, because it is appropriative of their culture.
Protip: Everyone is racist. In a very real way, everyone propagates bullshit that is actually and seriously harmful of another race (And I do not mean stupid shit that doesn’t actually hurt white people like ‘white people can’t jump’, I mean actually racist bullshit). Trying to say someone else isn’t ‘automatically racist’ is a giant red flag that you do not really understand racism in general, much less when you are doing it about appropriation.
How are the Japanese going to be meaningfully racist to a more dominant culture? Granted, football is a really, really global thing practiced a lot by much more marginalized countries and peoples than the USA, but…
Considering those same colonists were trying to kill them, it’s primarily irrelevant. That said, I also do not believe this is true without actual documentation. The colonists were trying to genocide the native peoples. I am aware that a perverse (In that it did basically nothing to actually help native people) ‘appreciation’ for native americans sprang up well before the current century’s half-assed fascination, but I am more than a little skeptical that it was held during the era where most people were even more active and urgent in genociding those same people.
Because you’re a dumbass saying hateful things.
Child, you have no idea how easy it is to get things removed on youtube, do you? That said, this is technically true; you are saying blazingly untrue things, so no matter what I do, I can’t stop you from speaking the truth…
i’m a grown ass man who knows the real deal. yall just nitpick at things you don’t like and think you can keep stuff the way it is, you feminists are done. did anyone look at my video called “good women are the reason i joined MGTOW”? didn’t think so.
@Hesster -
“Traditions shared voluntarily != appropriated bullshit.” — seconding that, and applying it to the examples
“I used to live near Seattle, where there are shops owned by Native Americans that sell traditional art objects and handmade clothing to tourists. Is it racist to buy and wear them?”
Assuming the clothing and art in question is made by Native Americans (and they’re getting paid for that) I’d consider that intentionally sharing traditions.
“is it racist to shave your head in a mohawk?”
Potentially but not necessarily? That one was appropriated by punk culture before I was born, so it seems like trying to eradicate it would be a lost cause. I’m going with “reply hazy, try again later” on this one though.
“We went to war against the Japanese too. Is it racist to dress up as a ninja or samurai? How about wearing a kimono or reading manga?”
Manga is intentionally shared as a for sale commercial item, so no. Kimonos and samurai costumes are definitely caricatures of the parts of Japanese culture they represent though (samurai and geisha costumes are so removed from what samurais and geisha wore/wear that I don’t even feel right calling them the same thing) — likely the same for ninjas, but the standard ninja costume has no basis at all in reality, so idk, giving that another “reply hazy, ask again later”.
“I agree what the US did to the Native Americans was pretty damn shitty, and in some ways it’s still pretty damn shitty.”
I can’t think of any current policies that aren’t shitty, but at least forced sterilization is a thing of the (recent) past — I’m hoping that’s what you meant there, it was more evilly shitty and is now less evilly shitty, but still fully shitty (does that make sense outside my head?)
“But just putting on a headdress doesn’t make you a racist against the Native Americans any more than wearing a gi makes you a racist against the Japanese IMHO.”
That’s probably a winner for terrible analogies, in the tribes that wear headdresses, they’re a sign of honor, a status symbol, in all the cases I can think of only the chiefs wear a full headdress — so yeah, wearing one is incredibly racist. Versus wearing a gi while doing marital arts? The interest in marital arts could be rooted in racism, but wearing the appropriate attire of the sport isn’t. These are not the same thing.
“Someone who gets a mohawk haircut, dresses up as a chief for a costume party, or wears a Native American leather beadwork jacket because he thinks it looks cool isn’t automatically racist.”
I’ve addressed all three already, but I want to reiterate that there’s a world of difference between wearing clothing made by Native Americans in traditional styles and dressing up as a chief for a costume party. For one it’s a costume based on the most respected member of tribes, which are part of a marginalized community. For two it’s always, fucking always, collapsing all tribes and traditions into a single stereotype. Polliwog may’ve said this better than I can -
“When you treat “Native American” as being something comparable to “a gorilla” or “the red M&M” or “Superman” – just a silly costume you can put on for funsies – that is pretty damn racist and appropriative, in and of itself.”
And re: intent — if I trip and fall and land on your foot, you’re still just as injured as if I had intentionally stomped your foot, doesn’t matter that I had no intent to hurt you, same thing here.
@Rutee — Dvärghundspossen’s comparison of marital arts and soccer/football may not have been the best analogy but I think ze was getting at the idea that you wear the clothing of the sport, regardless the sport, when you do the sport. As I said above the reasons why you’re doing the sport can still be racist, but I don’t think the clothing inherently is — I think that’s all Dvärghundspossen was trying to get at (sorry Dvärghundspossen if I’ve read you wrong!)
“who is the piece of shit who flagged my video?”
better question — who removed your video? youtube, for violating their terms of service, deal with it or host elsewhere, welcome to the internet
@Rutee: some citation: http://www.boston-tea-party.org/mohawks.html
Appropriation of Native American imagery and culture was pretty common throughout early colonial and revolutionary history, especially among the revolutionaries. Ben Franklin was big on the whole ‘Noble Savage’ ideal, and in general revolutionaries seized on imagery that was pointedly American to contrast with the Europeans they were rebelling against. Native imagery filled that role quite a bit.
Re: Mohawks specifically, there are some mixed feelings, but a lot of people do find them to be racist and appropriative http://zinelibrary.info/files/dread.pdf http://marxistqueen.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/cultural-appropriation-continued/
The cultural meaning of things like beadwork varies. It’s best to avoid in general, esp. if it’s not a gift or purchase from a native american person who made it, and things which have important cultural or religious status as not being for people without certain family memberships, religious status, social status, rank, etc. are larger on the racism and appropriation scale than things without that degree of significance. However, any taking of cultural objects to appropriate at all from colonized people by colonizers should make one wary. And if you see it as “dressing up like a native american”, it’s certainly racist and appropriative.
“dresses up as a chief for a costume party,” Always racist, always very racist. The sole exception to this would be someone who is a member of the same tribe as the chief portrayed (or, at least, that’s an in-group discussion then).
I am also a bit unsure about the hairstyle being inherently racist, though i see it for mohawks a bit more than dreads just because dreads I don’t think can be solely claimed by one culture or race. It is something where there is a level of appropriation that can certainly be inappropriate and racist for sure.
Course I say this as a white woman with dreads so I have an obvious bias. It is something that I thought about before hand though, albeit coming from the privileged position it doesn’t mean much. For me the deciding factor was being unable to determine a precise culture it would be appropriating. Hairstyles are tricky in this way since it is a part of someone’s body; and sort of like tattoos or piercings that once for some cultures had greater religious significance or status, the dominate culture did manage to find meaning in the body modification.
But yes, any kind of dressing up “as a person from ____ real (especially disenfranchised) culture” as though it is fantasy costume or cosplay is racist. And a hairstyle can certainly be a part of that.
darksidecat, reading your second link I entirely agree that the name for the hairstyle “Mohawk” is entirely problematic given that it isn’t accurate and acknowledging that it is in no way related to a Native culture would be better for everyone. And it is also a problem when the modern style is inserted into depictions of the tribe. I wish it wasn’t such an ingrained name for the style culturally, as I doubt a new name would catch on. Punkhawk? Idk.
The f**k did I just watch?!
“The world is already shuddering, but not because a few white douchebags are threatening to take their balls and go home.”
Given what I’ve seen of MGTOW so far, I approve of their plan to keep their balls as far away from me as possible. Another continent would be nice - I hear Antarctica is lovely this time of year.
“I don’t see how a white person simply dressing up as a Native American is racist. I used to live near Seattle, where there are shops owned by Native Americans that sell traditional art objects and handmade clothing to tourists. Is it racist to buy and wear them? is it racist to shave your head in a mohawk? We went to war against the Japanese too. Is it racist to dress up as a ninja or samurai? How about wearing a kimono or reading manga?
Rutee already dealt with this bit of fuckery quite nicely, but I just have to point out - wearing a kimono and reading manga? Not actually the same kind of thing. Kimono = a form of traditional dress specific to a certain culture. Manga = an entertainment product, designed to be consumed. Now, if you’re defining reading manga as something that makes you totes Japanese, then yes, reading manga may well be a racist act if that’s how the reader is approaching it. But it’s not inherently racist any more than, say, listening to Britpop or eating Thai curry is.
And yes, dressing up as Generic Member Of Specific Race and/or Racial Trope (Native American chief, geisha, Chinese woman in cheongsam, etc) is racist. Many POC have written about this and how offensive they find it, especially people from the cultures that are most often appropriated and fetishised in that way.
Short version - don’t attempt to turn a race or a culture into a costume unless you want people to think you’re an ignorant racist buffoon.
Armageddon, dude, we’re not upset, we’re making fun of you. You go right on speaking. So will we.
i’m a grown ass man who knows the real deal.
Pretty sure no actually-grown man with an adult level of maturity would ever utter that sentence.
“did anyone
look atlisten to my video…”fixed that for you (and no one wants to listen to your videos, ever heard of podcasts?)
“if what i said wasn’t true, why would yall get so upset? you have ZERO percent chance of ever stopping me from speaking the truth, ZERO.”
We are upset because saying all women are stupid is hateful, bigoted, and WRONG. Speak your delusion of truth, I don’t care. But you have ZERO chance that I won’t call you out for the asshole that you are.
I thought it was fucked up when that one Spearhead commenter talked about removing baby girls’ voiceboxes to stop feminism.That was pretty upsetting.
But I guess that just means what he said was true. Such is Armageddon’s logic!
Is it just me, or is this always preceded by a bigoted rant from some privileged group about an oppressed one.
I have a feeling that this is a phrase that’s in frequent rotation for you
In one of your videos, you talk about how it’s pointless to argue how women online.
So why are you here? Follow your own advice and get out.
In one of your videos, you talk about how it’s pointless to argue with women and feminists online.
So why are you here? Follow your own advice and get out.
Oops, double post.
I’m starting to wonder if MGTOW have a very specific kink, and it’s for women telling them to get lost. Certainly it would explain why they keep wanking on about how they’re going their own way, yes they are, in the fact of constant “OK then, see ya” responses. Surely they must have noticed by now that women as a group are not upset about the idea of them avoiding us.
In the face of, not fact. I can type, honest.
This is for Armageddon
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3phi2p/
Thanks Argenti. Well, I also think there’s a difference between Japanese and Native-Americans in that Japan is a big power globally speaking, economically and culturally, while Native-Americans are oppressed by the majority culture in the USA. So that’s one more difference which makes the comparision between gi and headress weird in my eyes.
But my basic point was that when you’re training or competing in a certain sport you wear the clothes of that sport. It would actually BE racist if a sensei were to state that “in my class, only asians can wear a gi, while caucasians must wear shorts and t-shirt” or something like that. If the sensei simply kicked out certain people because zie felt they weren’t taking martial arts seriously or didn’t respect the culture of martial arts, fine, but saying that white people couldn’t wear martial arts clothing while doing martial arts… would be racist IMO.
Besides, in Sweden, “mohawk hairstyle” is called “tuppkam”, which literally translate to “rooster’s crest”. So suppose a Swedish punkrocker has this hairdo, and actually doesn’t even know it’s called “mohawk” in English, but simply think of it as “rooster’s crest” and something that punks have. Would that make any difference?
CALVAIRE!!! YES!
I wish MGTOW were like the first clip. They would be so much more pleasant.
Hahaha, lol at that first actual MRA video. Him saying that school is wicked easy but then makes up excuses for why he doesn’t do well. And then he says it’s harder to build a bridge than be a doctor?
WHAT IS THIS MAN? PLEASE GO! GO AND NEVER LOOK BACK! GOING MEANS TO KEEP US OUT YOUR MOUTH AS WELL BUDDY!
Dude sounds like a local and that scares me. Ughh. So many misogynists and racists and homophobes around here. I can imagine a guy like this trying to force a drink and obnoxious conversation on me at the bar and me being like, “Are you for real with the shit you’re spewing?” and then him thinking I’m the bad guy for wanting some respect.
I don’t know if any of you are familiar with the story of Casey Serin, but this legendarily unsuccessful entrepreneur launched a very similar island-based scheme back in 2009. Naturally, it came to nothing.
(Wikipedia biog here - scroll down to the section headed ‘Island Project’. Plus a more detailed timeline of his efforts here).
Curses - wrong thread, sorry!
“Besides, in Sweden, “mohawk hairstyle” is called “tuppkam”, which literally translate to “rooster’s crest”. So suppose a Swedish punkrocker has this hairdo, and actually doesn’t even know it’s called “mohawk” in English, but simply think of it as “rooster’s crest” and something that punks have. Would that make any difference?”
A non-appropriative name is exactly what darksidecat’s second link is requesting, so maybe? The style itself seems to be incredibly old (peat bog mummies old), found in non-Native American cultures, and not a traditional Kanien’gehaga (Mohawk) style — so naming it something generic like “rooster’s crest” seems like it would solve most of the issues. And it does kind of resemble a rooster’s crest. I really don’t know though, particularly outside the US were you’d need to consider the other cultures that have tradition styles actually resembling the “mohawk”.
I’m glad I read what you were saying right. Also, at least in the US (idk other country’s laws to comment) “… would be racist IMO” is legally the case, you’d probably have to prove actual harm occurred, so idk if it’d win in court, but yeah, it’d be racist (contra “please learn some respect before you return” wouldn’t be any sort of issue).
But if they actually appeared on their videos it would mean that the men and women they call fat and ugly just for being feminists would be able to equally judge their looks. They can’t have that!
It’s really scary how many people out there are like this though. I’ve been the person who had to say “Umm, condom?” several times and often I got, “What, you’re not on birth control?” I’m over here like, “AIDS, HAVE YOU HEARD OF IT?” I feel like it should be an automatic thing for a man who hasn’t specifically been tested and had their partner tested. I dunno. It’s hard to believe just how ignorant people are about their own sexual health. I just had to have a talk with my 23 year old cousin the other day about how herpes and hpv spread and whatnot. I don’t know how people DON’T actively seek out knowledge about what they’re doing.
I find that some men are just ignorant to what good sex is. I think this is a result of any mixture of a few things.
1. Being generally inexperienced / only having been with inexperienced people who don’t know what they like yet
2. Learning how to have sex from porn (ughh)
3. Never having been directed or not listening to direction when it’s been given
4. Never having their technique criticized.
5. Just simply not caring about their partner’s pleasure and looking for a warm version of a blow up doll.
They’d have to actually take the initiative to research sex methods and whatnot to think of a dental damn, and actually care enough about the pleasure of their partner to want to do something as selfless as give her oral. It’s really a bummer that some people just want a hole to stick it in. I feel like they’re missing out, especially in the instance of casual sex, because they’re afraid to give too much or something so they wind up giving way too little. They just have boring, uninspired sex, and their partner leaves unfulfilled. So yeah, it can come off as kind of cold, but any time I’ve encountered such a man I make it my duty to give direction, and if he doesn’t listen, be like, “Uhh, that was not good.” I mean, someone’s gotta tell them. LOL oops. MISANDRY!
I want you to go watch the movie American History X and then tell me that leaving up offensive, ignorant trash like your videos isn’t harmful. People who are hateful for no good reason are dying for someone to come along and justify their hatred. They won’t stop to examine that hatred, but they’ll say, “Hey, these guys agree with me, so I must be right!”
Though I would never consider you a powerful speaker like Edward Norton’s character in that film, it’s still dangerous to have people stating hate speech as if it was fact. And it’s against youtube’s terms of service… you know, that contract you agreed to upon signing up. So if you want to host this type of propaganda you’re probably gonna have to pay for your own host.
Jessay@jessay, presumably you know what these guys think: really being tender and caring to a woman in bed undermines one’s essential masculinity. In other words, heterosexuality, when freely engaged in, is actually gay.
Raoul — holy assumptions batman!
Premises:
1) “being tender and caring … undermines one’s essential masculinity”
1b) being tender and caring is effeminate
2) “…is actually gay”
2b) gays are effeminate
Seriously problematic issues here:
1) citation fucking needed on premise one, but even if we pretend that’s just a personal preference for being a jerk, you’ve still got -
2) you can only get from premise 1 to premise 2 by assuming both caring men and gay men are effeminate
3) “gays are effeminate” = homophobic assumption
4) men having sex with women makes them men having sex with men? o.O?
5) there’s a problem with men being effeminate? there’s a problem with assuming they are from one trait, eg caring or homosexuality, but there’s no general prohibition on effeminate men
4 there is going to make my head explode, to put this in generic logic terms, you’ve just said X = not-X — I prefer my paradoxes in my sci-fi >.<
Armageddon: if what i said wasn’t true, why would yall get so upset?
That’s precisely why, they aren’t true.
Argenti: you maybe remember the str8-porn-makes-you-gay controversy of 2009? I’m not saying anything really new here?
I should repunctuate that more declaratively: I’m not saying anything new here [period].
@ Rutee
Then I kindly invite you to piss right off. If you think it’s racist for any white person to dress like a Native American for any reason whatsoever, then you’re the type that sees a racist behind every fucking tree. While it’s true that everyone carries stereotypes about people from other races and cultures they should examine, not everyone is a cross burning, slur spouting, “I hate anyone who doesn’t look like me” racist. You can find racism in just about any innocent action if you look hard enough.
And if you think the government had no intent to eradicate the Indians’ culture or take their land, you’re pretty fucking clueless yourself, because that’s EXACTLY what they intended. They wanted to stick them on reservations so whites could take their land, and forceably assimilate their children so they would become like whites. Some people might have justified it as for their own good, but a justification was all it was. I never claimed it was right, so don’t go around making accusations on baseless assumptions about what you think I think.
Here’s a situation for you to think about. I have a friend who plays a Native American Shadowrun character. He’s planning on dressing up as the character for a big tabletop gaming convention later in the year. Should I tell him he shouldn’t cosplay his character because it’s racist? Or should he just dump the character he has played for years cause that’s racist too? Or is it OK because he’s Asian and not white?
Here’s something else for you to chew on: the dominant culture depends on where you live. The dominant culture in Japan is not western. How could it be when foreigners make up approximately 2% of the population, and westerners make up a tiny fraction of that? I know people that live there. Non-Japanese people are seen as second class citizens and face real discrimination, especially in finding housing and in the workplace. In general, Japan likes western culture, but they view foreigners (including westerners) as inferior, and they really don’t like Asians from other countries. Seeing as how you have such strong opinions on appropriating culture, does it bother you that they’re nuts about Christmas, baseball, American style weddings and have assimilated the Chinese written language?
http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html
I think Hesster’s aiming to fill a bingo card here. You’re just too sensitive! Calling someone a racist is a greater crime that actually being a racist! Clueless appropriation can’t be racist, because he’s not burning a cross and he’s really a nice person! Nice people can’t be racists! And a new entrant, Japanese can’t be racist because they don’t have enough other races around to be racist about! And doing an activity for years totally makes it not racist!
And again participation in an activity =/= appropriation (wearing a gi while doing marshal arts=participation, while wearing “native” gear to dress up as a character in a game=appropriation)
@Hesster: see the problem is, you define racist as: , not everyone is a cross burning, slur spouting. That’s a Jim Crow racist.
Not everybody defines “racist” in that way, and more to the point, it’s quite likely that Jim Crow racism is less shown today (sociological research tends to show it, but I’m lazy today and can’t be bothered to cite).
However, there are *new* forms of racism that are being studied today: i.e. it’s not just that Jim Crow racism was (somewhat, mostly, largely?) eradicated, but it was replaced by unconscious or aversive racism.
here, read this.
If you really care about impacts of racisms, you’ll read and learn.
But I suspect you are a troll who just wants to throw a temper tantrum and declare that anybody identifying racism is OMGWORSETHANRACISTS!
In which case, kindly fuck the hell off.
Also: as a white American, I’m not educated enough to talk about how racisms manifest in different cultures (or colorisms). In the work I do, I focus on USian forms of racisms which are different than those in other cultures (UK racisms are not like US racisms).
Racism: it’s not a simple concrete concept, and jumping up and down and yelling about your Japanese friend is not likely to get you many points in the debate.
I bet Hesster thinks we’re living in a post-racial society, and she’s “colorblind.”
Ah, casual hipster racism, a treat for the whole family!
Hesster: I think I know what’s upsetting you.
DSC didn’t say you were a racist. DSC didn’t even say people who dress as Native Americans are racist (per se). DSC said that dressing in such a fashion is a racist thing to do.
All of us can do bigotted things. It doesn’t mean we are bigots. It doesn’t mean we did an intentionally bigotted thing.
The problem is (no matter what the bigottry is) most of us take it as a personal attack to be told that’s what happened. The trick is to not take is a blanket statement about the nature of the person being discussed, and examine it as a specific act/behavior.
Have you guys seen Johnny Depp as Tonto in the upcoming Lone Ranger?
http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/2012/03/johnny-depp-as-cultural-appropriation.html
If you did it following their norms and at their behest, that’d definitely be different. I’m not sure on how following other cultures fashion trends counts, if that helps.
We’ve been over this. Every single human being spreads racist bullshit that causes actual harm. What’s your point, a “PC GONE MAAAAAAAAAAAAAD” thing?
No, no they aren’t. Most of them are ZOMG WE’RE NOT RACIST THATS SO AWFUL HOW DARE YOU” types who oppose any effort to actually do anything about racism. Like you.
Are you an idiot? That was the point.
If his character dresses in stereotypical native american ways and continues stupid shit white people think native people do, then yeah, you should.
That may very well be even better, depending on execution. I can’t say for sure. He might just be a native american. He might continue stupid stereotypes.
Does “Everyone is racist and spreads stupid shit about marginalized groups” lost on you in some way? Does the concept elude you?
That’s highly debatable, considering the US military maintaining a base there and the adoption of a lot of western customs. WE’re talking about an imperial culture that imposes itself in a lot of places, you know.
….
Yeah, it’s not like dominant cultures can be imposed militarily, or through prestige…
Yeah. And it still absorbs from the USA, because the USA is a dominant culture on the planet.
Well, not white people. WHite people get a lot of extremely useful credit in Japan too, same as anywhere else. They’re idolized, and sociologists *in Japan* have studied the shifting of beauty standards to more closely mirror white people…
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
WHAT ABOUT THE WHITE PEOPLE YO? Copying from the dominant culture on the planet is not ‘appropriation’. The Chinese written language was taken when that was *China* for them. So no, not really, I don’t care about them taking from dominant peoples for them, I’m much more concerned with shit like their utterly racist and horrid handling of the Ainu, or Koreans seeking (and granted, in a lot of cases) immigration.
Well, it’s more accurate to say that taking from the dominant culture isn’t harmful, and you can’t really hurt the dominant culture with it. IT’s taken as a curiosity or proof of superiority at best.
Besides, in Sweden, “mohawk hairstyle” is called “tuppkam”, which literally translate to “rooster’s crest”.
Interesting; now I want to make that name catch on in America!
The RPG character thing basically comes down to how well-handled it is. We’re sat here on Insufficient Data To Judge. If it’s riddled with bullshit and stereotypes, then yeah, ‘s not the best of things. If it’s done well (and, hell, in Shadowrun I can see it being done to address racist shittyness that exists in our societies), then I have no problem with it.
(If you think I’m wrong, I’d be interested in arguments as to why- I’ve changed my mind on this sort of thing as a result in the past.)
Raoul — perhaps I misread you and you were implying MRAs think that? It came off as you saying “this is how things actually are” not “this is what some people think” — I was arguing with the former, I’m sure some people do think that, they’re just wrong though (to a level of paradoxically wrong that makes my head hurt)
Re: RPG characters, I’m going to agree with MorkaisChosen on this one as the only other option I see if having a 100% white cast of RP characters and that strikes me as worse than trying to tactfully handle minority characters…I’d not cosplay them though.
Guy Noir — yeah I have and omfgs wtf was he thinking? “I liked having stuff in my hair as Captain Jack so let me put all the random stuff in my hair”?! The budget that must have and no one thought to at least ask some Native Americans how they’d like to see the role handled? Or maybe cast a Native American?
Rutee — idk about Japan, but I had a friend quit teaching English in Korea early because she couldn’t take the mockery over cultural differences — things like wanting to wear a towel in the swimming pool’s dressing room. She had issues getting mental health coverage from her employer too, so I’m not sure how much it was racism that drove her back to the US early, but it is possible to be racist to USians outside the US. Celebrating Christmas doesn’t really get an entire nation a free pass on everything else…but you’re right, we invaded Japan, not Korea, so maybe this is irrelevant.
Point is just that there’s a difference between absorbing US culture and how people treat USians in the country, most people are more comfortable with things in theory than practice.
if having 100% = is having 100% >.<
Of course Hesster is a fan of Debito Arudo…
Debito is an asshat. His whole shtick is concern trolling; he moves to Japan, becomes a Japanese citizen just so he can tell Japanese people “This is how terible you are and here`s what you need to change about yourselves”. I heard he`d recently moved back to America which is good news.
As a foreigner living in Japan (just moved here 2 months ago…have been here three times before for short stayss) I can confirm that there are some ways in which you sometimes feel alienated by Japanese people. But as a white person my experience is still way more positive than if I were any other kind of foreigner (black, Hispanic, or even Korean).
Not to belabor the point, but you can only have a cast of 100% white characters this way if you only have a player group that is 100% white, which seems a much bigger problem. But no, what I said was that if the character was stupidly handled then yeah actually, it’d be better to stop. I don’t know or really care to find out the exactly correct solution here, because we already know the answer Hesster is fishing for; carte blanche.
IIRC we still have military presence in Korea and we didn’t entirely lose worldwide respect there. I’d be very surprised if white people didn’t still have pride of place as they do basically everywhere else. I’ve been surprised before though.
You mean white people. It’s trivially true that one can be racist to US people, because around a quarter of the US populace is not white.
I remember a black dude teaching English had a website for a while about his time there. There was some ‘fun’ fucked up shit in there. I doubt it’s entirely a bed of roses for anyone, but I know white people still get cut a lot of slack (That isn’t even cut to other Japanese people, f’rex)
Rutee -
“Not to belabor the point, but you can only have a cast of 100% white characters this way if you only have a player group that is 100% white, which seems a much bigger problem.”
Eh, yes and no — you could always have non-white players playing white characters, but you’re correct that I have a set of white players (well, I’m of Native descent, but that’s kind of besides the point as I’m ST/DM) — that I’m having a hell of time getting 4 people to give me solid schedules is part of the problem, that and I have no non-white friends with an interest in vampire RPG. They’re also all men, though one’s written up a female character and she’s quite well done, he intends to tackle the woman in Victorian London issues. Basically though I just have a tiny set of people with any interest.
“IIRC we still have military presence in Korea and we didn’t entirely lose worldwide respect there. I’d be very surprised if white people didn’t still have pride of place as they do basically everywhere else. I’ve been surprised before though.”
I really don’t know how much it was that she’s a white USian, and how much it was the utter lack of respect for her need for mental health care (she’s bipolar, so that’s really not some “can’t you wait 6 months?” thing).
“You mean white people.”
Yes, I did, my apologies for not making that clear.
Is Hester actually trying to provide a perfect example of “does not understand how racism works”?
RE Japan - yes, it’s pretty damn prejudiced towards people who’re not ethnically Japanese with Japanese citizenship and the family registry to prove it. Mostly towards other Asian people. You want to talk about poor treatment of minority groups in Japan? OK, let’s start with acknowledging that what we’re seeing would be more appropriately described as xenophobia rather than racism, and move on from there to acknowledge that the primary victims are a. the native peoples of various Japanese islands (Ainu, Ryokan), b. the Burakumin, who are ethnically Japanese (probably, various historians still seem to disagree about this), but of a caste that in some ways approximates to the untouchables in India, and the victims of widespread and pervasive discrimination, and c. ethnic Koreans who really should have Japanese citizenship, but don’t, because as we already discussed, xenophobia.
White people in Japan want to talk about discrimination against them? Take a number, get in line, because there are a lot of other groups with significantly worse problems to be dealt with first. It’s just that white people in Japan often think that they’re being discriminated against in worse ways than anyone else because for many of them it’s the first time in their lives they’ve ever not been part of the culturally dominant group, and it’s a hell of a shock.
Also, even if people eating burgers and celebrating Christmas (kind of) in Japan was appropriation? That still wouldn’t make it OK for Americans to dress up as “Native American Chief, With Headdress” for costume parties.
(The other way to avoid Cast Of White People in RPGs is to play a green dude. Works better in some games than others, admittedly.
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@katz: Nonsense, he clearly has learned how to debate from the most mature and masculine of all men, Superman!
RE: Lauralot
I have that panel as my trans rage icon on LJ and the manboobz forum!
I also really want the shirt.
My rage icon on LJ is a Red Lantern vomiting blood/energy.
The “I Am a Man” shirt is at the top of my list of “things I need to own someday. That and the Etsy shirt with Loki yelling “I DO WHAT I WANT, THOR!”
Seems a lot of people are intimidated my MGTOW. As a future expat, I know there are BILLIONS of women that LOVE men who blaze their own path. I cosign Armageddon,