Men’s Rights Reddit explains it all to you
Apparently we feminists simply can’t understand the Men’s Rights Movement, because
feminist ideology is still stuck in the 19th century concept that women are second class citizens when objectively they are in a better position than men. … The[y] just cannot grasp that in modern western society men are second class citizens.
Luckily, the good fellows at the Men’s Rights subreddit on Reddit are here to put us straight.
Oh, and while they’re at it, they would also like to explain to us at great length why the whole Slutwalk thing is so silly. I mean, telling women to not dress like sluts if they don’t want to get raped is just good common sense! And obviously dudes have a much greater understanding of the topic of rape and personal safety in general than silly ladies with their silly lady brains and their silly tendency to get drunk on silly lady drinks.
Because Reddit Men’s Rights is not completely dominated by retrograde MRA misogynists, there are actually some decent comments mixed in with all the patronizing nonsense. Enjoy?
Posted on June 12, 2011, in antifeminism, creepy, I'm totally being sarcastic, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, rape, rapey, reddit, sluts. Bookmark the permalink. 129 Comments.
@MRAL: My father is a short Dutchman who has always felt insecure about his height, so he moved to France, where he’s of average height. If really therapy doesn’t work for you, it’s something you might consider. There are plenty of countries where the average height is shorter than in the U.S.: Asian countries like China or Japan, Southern European countries… Plus, you get to learn to speak a new language fluently and you get to enrich yourself culturally. It could be a pretty cool experience, especially since you’re a white American.
And believe me, you don’t want to get raped: it wouldn’t make your current problems go away, just add much, much worse ones, which could derail your education and make your relationships with women much, much worse. Not to mention that, if you ever spoke out about it, you would really start feeling other people’s contempt (men who get raped don’t get a whole lot of sympathy, unfortunately).
I’m done with you, unless you want to apologize (and its up to the rest of the people here whether they except it). You are despicable(Kirby)
Wow, he’s despicable? I imagine the young man may have some mental illness(probably depression). I would have thought a reasonably intelligent person such as yourself would recognize that and not demand more from them than is obviously possible or know enough not to engage them. MRA my ass, hurting, angry young man is more like it.
Fooling Yourself (the Angry Young Man)
You see the world through your cynical eyes
You’re a troubled young man I can tell
You’ve got it all in the palm of your hand
But your hand’s wet with sweat and your head needs a rest
You’re foolin’ yourself if you don’t believe it
You’re kidding yourself if you don’t believe it
How can you be such an angry young man
When your future looks quite bright to me
How can there be such a sinister plan
That could hide such a lamb, such a caring young man
You’re foolin’ yourself if you don’t believe it
You’re kidding yourself if you don’t believe it
Get up, get back on your feet
You’re the one they can’t beat and you know it
Come on, let’s see what you’ve got
Just take your best shot and don’t blow it
You’re foolin’ yourself if you don’t believe it
You’re kidding yourself if you don’t believe it
Get up, get back on your feet
You’re the one they can’t beat and you know it
Come on, let’s see what you’ve got
Just take your best shot and don’t blow it.
So, the Men’s Rights subreddit seems to be (from the first ten or so comments I read, before I decided to stop lest I roll my eyes too hard and hurt myself somehow) seems pretty equally divided between, “Well, women suffer sometimes TOO (although not as much as men, of course) and some of them actually pay attention to some men’s concerns (although still gold medalling in the Whining Olympics) so we should really tone down the rhetoric and focus on specific issues” and “Feminists are evil and want to DESTROY MEN!”
Both are somewhat misogynistic, but the prevalence of the former viewpoint (even if it’s only on Reddit) is…slightly heartening?
And then I clicked the second link. Why did I do that? Ugh. I would rant, but I feel myself getting tl;dr, so; ugh. Just, ugh.
MRAL,
I would read your blog if you started one, legit. As for a topic-what is there in your life that you *don’t* feel angry and miserable about. Don’t get me wrong, I think our society is too quick to judge people for expressing doubt or anger. I’m fascinated by people frankly discussing their pain and frustration, so I would read your blog even if it was all about heightism. But I have to admit it would be more fun if you mixed it up with posts about programming or linguistics or sailing or stuffed animals or whatever makes you happy in your life.
Oh, one more thing about heightism:
What I’m about to say is a chain of conclusions each based on like study, so take this with a grain of salt, but did you know that how much money you make as an adult has more to do with how tall you were in high school than how tall you are as an adult? In other words, it’s not (just) adult society discriminating. Something happens to tall *kids* that prepares them to succeed, or something happens to short *kids* that it holding them back.
Nobody’s sure yet what that is, but we have some ideas. Here’s one. The more clubs and social groups you’re in in high school, the more money you end up making as an adult. Apparently being in those clubs teaches social skills, looks good on resumes, and/or helps you network or apply to college. Now here’s the weird part: tall kids in high school join more clubs than shorter kids.
So in your life today you look around at a party and see a bunch of tall dudes living it up. They have the friends, they have the women, they have the invites, whatever. Here’s what you’ve got to remember: they got all that by applying a skill that they learned in childhood. If you can figure out the trick, their skills will work for you too. Will you be on a perfectly level playing field against a taller man in every walk of life? No. But then, being shorter has its advantages too XD.
Commonly given advice on how not to be raped is a fairy tale for modern ladies, it says don’t go into the woods alone and you won’t get eaten by wolves.
And while it might be true that women can take steps to keep from being raped if we never leave the house, or always go out chaperoned, and spend years and years worried about our personal safety, but at it’s most successful the advice does nothing to prevent rape, it only shifts that rape onto someone else who was perhaps not as virtuous and who forgot to take out their car keys before walking into a dark parking lot.
If all we get for a lifetime of behaving the way we are told we should is the certainty that someone just like us is being attacked because of the traits we have in common and that at any time we could forget magical step #72, *become* that person, and be blamed because we forgot, then the advice, no matter how well meaning the deliverer, is not working.
What’s interesting to me MRAL, is that you rage about the perceived injustices of your life and expect us to empathize with you, and if you had and reading comprehension at all you would see that people have tried. But when we call you on your language (re: your rape statements) and try to explain why this is an issue, you flip out and bitch about us not empathizing with you, and something bizarre about ‘feminists expect empathy’ or some such bullshit. MRAL, empathy is not a feminist thing. It’s a HUMAN thing.
I’ve lurked here for a very long time (since before David moved the site over), and one of the things that sticks out about you is your inability to empathize beyond your own personal “Ohh, gawd fucked me overr because I’m (insert your standard whining here).” You seem incapable and unwilling to put yourself in other people’s shoes. For example: I was an active athlete, promising musician, and good student when I became ill and disabled six years ago (when I was 20). Fucking shitty as hell to go from swimming 4,000 meters a day to being barely able to get out of bed. I walk with a cane a lot of the time. People stare. I’ll be l ike this for the rest of my life. Am I cursing gawd for my situation? No. Does it piss me off? A lot of the time, yes. But I still live my life instead of making up Byzantine and arbitrary social rankings (your fucked up Greek system) and stewing in anger and hatred. My life as I knew it basically ended when I was 20, I lost my music scholarship and had to move back home with my parents. There are days I can barely move. All that’s wrong with you is a slightly off eye (I saw the photo), and a possible chemical imbalance (well, and your entitled attitude). I will spend my entire life in crippling pain, but I get up every morning. You have potential, you are intelligent and going to a good school, I think I read that you had made an appointment to see a counselor or something? That’s great. I’ll be honest, I really don’t like you. I pretty much can’t stand you. But I wish you well, and wish you never have to experience sexual assault or rape. So when you’re on this board, maybe you should read/listen more, instead of bitching about what’s wrong with YOU.
Hide and Seek - I like the ‘fairy tale’ comparison. Not only does this ‘how to not get raped’ advice often blame the victim, it usually [i]does not work[/i]. Mansplaining at its best, I guess. (We need a more all-purpose ‘spouting off about subjects you really don’t understand as well as you think’ term, though, since this advice doesn’t come exclusively from men.)
“Dunning your Krueger”
MRAL, “way back when”, African-Americans were *literally enslaved*. There is no comparison. At all. To being you.
By making that comparison in such a flippant and cavalier way you are trivializing one of the worst human rights atrocities in history. Do you get that? And do you get how completely uncalled for it is?
It reminds me of an SNL ****PARODY**** of “My Super Sweet Sixteen” where something was going wrong with the Sweet 16 party arrangements and the kid has a total meltdown in which she screams “this is literally worse than the holocaust”.
I emphasized “parody” so that ppl don’t start riffing on this like it was, you know, actually true. Because that kind of dumbass shit happens around here.
Mansplaining doesn’t require ignorance on the part of the ‘splainer, though that does make it more egregious. The key to Mansplaining is the assumption that your audience is ignorant, and in need of your wisdom, because they are female and you are male (though many of the MRA’s who come to this site condescend to mansplain to manginas like myself).
A perfect example is from the previous thread, with NWOSlave. His “advice” having been shown to be relevant to only a very small subset of rapes and not useful in any case, he then asked if he should give the opposite advice, which he considered to be a bad idea. The option to not give “advice” at all didn’t even occur to him.
Seraph - good point! Although I’d argue the two tend to go hand-in-hand; a man (or woman) who feels that, for example, women haven’t really [i]thought[/i] much about rape or rape prevention and therefore could really benefit
My comment posted before I was finished.
Grr.
Seraph - good point! Although I’d argue the two tend to go hand-in-hand; a man (or woman) who feels that, for example, women haven’t really [i]thought[/i] much about rape or rape prevention and therefore could really benefit from his/her off-the-cuff advice…exposes his/her ignorance as well as arrogance.
T4T-Kirby and most of the rest of us understand that MRAL’s problems are very serious and real to him. But we have no reason to continue to indulge his kvetchfests when he starts making claims that insult those who have suffered equally or more.
You have been MIA for a while and for all I know are just being your usual disingenuous self or maybe you missed his belittlement, dismissal and disrespect for those who suffered from everything from public gropings to rape. At some point enough is enough and Kirby (and he is not the only one) has reached that limit.
So either go away or make an effort to see why someone is so angry with him before telling that person their ire is unwarranted.
And, may I add, domo arigato, Mr. Roboto.
Elizabeth
Oh I get the anger aspect very well. I just dont get why the need to keep addressing him. “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”
And think about it for a minute, if the guy is really mentally ill(which seems really possible), what does someone gain by belittling him back? Now back to me, I wasnt MIA I was just watching the show or should I say rerun.
Things I would rather have done than be raped
cut off a toe or finger
be bald for the rest of my life
give birth to sextuplets
have a deformed eye
be a short man
be a little person
pay child support
be able to only see my kids once a week
have people literally spit on me(not MRAL perceived spitting) every day for the rest of my life
CB
I never really got into that song. Though it does have some lyrics that are pretty appropriate for many on here.
I am the modren man
(Secret, secret I’ve got a secret)
Who hides behind a mask
(Secret, secret, I’ve got a secret)
So no one else can see
(Secret, secret, I’ve got a secret)
My true identity
If the guy was really mentally ill, he has received all the sympathy people can muster. And the only thing that seems to work with him is the lack of sympathy.
I wish people would forget that damn song. There was so much more to Styx than that.
Im not saying sympathize, Im saying ignore. I just find it ridiculous that someone needs to rant on someone who is so clearly messed up, what could you possibly gain from that? Hey, you can always direct some more my way, afterall, Im not mentally ill, just somewhat hard headed.
Hugo Schwyzer the fuckhead’s new misandrist post is up:
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2011/06/13/feminism-porn-and-slutwalk-part-one-of-a-conversation-with-meghan-murphy/#more-3982
Looks to me he is saying he wants men to be willing to listen to what women have to say and not to tell women what to think/hear/say/do or otherwise control them. And he says that men need to stop other men from acting in manners that are sexist even when around their friends-which is bad how?
He does sound like he is lecturing but then again, the guy IS a college professor.
T4T then say what you mean and not pussy foot around.
Longtime lurker cannot resist posting, sorry if its troll feeding
I am a woman who misses the definition of dwarfism by about half an inch, am in perfect health and proportion, just short.
My height is often a physical issue in living in a world for the average sized - eg driving cars, reaching things, even cooking in an average designed kitchen, looking in a mirror in a public bathroom, shopping in the supermarket where I often have to ask for help, working at an office standard workplace, hell even getting my child out of the hospital bassinet was awkward. I am often assumed to be a schoolchild and have occasionally been perved on because of my childlike stature. Even petite clothing requires alterations which is expensive and time consuming. I am often IDd despite being past 30, often assumed to be a ‘stupid wee lassie’ and you should see the shenanigans I have to go through to change a lightbulb or resent the fusebox!
And do you know what - its a bit irritating but sure as hell doesnt define me! I am not ‘fucked by god’ despite the daily inconveniences, its a trivial matter compared to all the real suffering, injustice and hardship in the world. I have a good professional job, postgraduate education and enough self confidence for any situation. If someone has a problem with my height or makes assumptions because of it that is their issue and I dont have to internalise it.
You’ll say its easy for me, its less of a problem because I am female. My brother, about half a head shorter than you is an athelete who competes internationally, (and no, hes not a jockey) is renowned in his academic field and gets more female attention than is good for him.
You would look and feel much taller without that chip on your shoulder. The self perpetuating pity fest you are creating every thread is not going to help you. Go to a psychologist, get some help and perspective on processing it all and start enjoying your astonishingly privelaged western life - perhaps even do something worthwhile with it, to help those without your advantages
OK, I will never engage with this again.
But could we have a mansplainer of the week award?
I did
Are we still talking about MRAL’s height? You are of average fucking height. There is nothing wrong with your height, except in your mind. And while we’re on the subject of your mind, as a person with a psychiatric diagnosis I say this: Get help. You need it. You are clearly not connected to reality. I am out of patience with your neurosis. (I’m also 5’1″, and I think you should get the fuck over yourself about being short).
MRAL,
I don’t understand what you find objectionable about that post from Hugo. I mean, there are one or two sentences you could quote-mine as examples of his “cringing apologetic masculinity” or something. But I read the post and I see a man daring to disagree with a woman, and in fact to defend pornography and sex work from feminist criticism. I know you think he’s some kind of cringing toady, but don’t you think he’s actually speaking the Men’s Rights position in this case?
@Titfortat
Basically what Elizabeth said at 12:09. MRAL has had plenty of sympathy from everybody here, and many have shared truly painful experiences in an attempt to give him some perspective. But instead of taking that perspective, or at least realizing that his words are very painful to a bunch of people, he continues to assert his right to be as asshole-ish as he wants in bemoaning his pain. I didn’t ignore him because he was actually showing some sincerity, and I didn’t ignore him because its better to try to stop hurtful behavior than allow it to continue.
I understand fully that he may be mentally incapable of sympathizing with others, or realizing how much damage he’s doing. And as I’ve said, in other circumstances I would fully take that into account. But you don’t allow a mentally unstable person to beat up the people around him just because he’s incapable of doing otherwise. His need to be understood stops the moment he insists on trampling over everyone around him.
But you don’t allow a mentally unstable person to beat up the people around him just because he’s incapable of doing otherwise.(Kirby)
Ah the irony. I remember a while back when I pointed out how some people on this site were bullies and that the way they expressed themselves was violent(not you). Interestingly enough I was ridiculed and told, “Tat, its just words on a screen” get over it. I get what youre saying but can mral really beat people up on here? Also, if you really think he could be mentally unstable why even run the risk of continuing his bad behaviour by addressing him? Im sure if you ignore him long enough he will go away. Or is it good to have him around to mock because of his egregious and entertaining behaviour, hmmm?
@Titfortat:
Honestly? He’s not bothering me much. But from posts of other people, his words are acting as really bad triggers for them. That’s how MRAL can “beat people up here.” And honestly, having no real triggers of my own, I can only go by what others say for what affects them.
Also if you noticed, he left in a huff rather quickly after my rant against him. Luckily he hasn’t brought up rape again today, but I would say it was at least modestly successful.
Actually, ignoring bullies never works — it only emboldens them. Also, I see no reason to assume that MRAL is mentally unstable. We can’t now silence ourselves and shut down all discussion just because some Internet troll who comes here might be depressed, and us refusing to indulge his self-pity might make him depresseder. He’s got problems in his life? Yeah, that’s a rare one.
More fuel for the fire: my After Action Report on the Longest Thread Ever. (reposted from the said thread)
David posted at 11:00 AM on June 8, 2011. MRAL began commenting at 12:39 PM.
12:39 12:47 12:50 12:51 12:53 12:58 1:06 1:06 1:44 1:45 1:47 2:28 2:33 2:35 2:36 2:38 2:40 2:43 2:44 2:47 2:48 2:50 2:53 2:57 2:58 3:01 3:04 3:05 3:09 3:18 3:41 3:47 3:52 3:53 3:56 4:00 4:03 4:04 4:06 4:07 4:12 4:18 4:20 4:23 4:26 4:30 8:33 8:42 8:45 8:51 8:56 9:05 9:10 9:16 9:19 9:23 9:24 9:27 9:31 9:34 9:37 9:39 9:41 9:43 9:45 9:50 9:52 9:54 9:56 9:59 10:02 10:03 10:06 10:08 10:10 10:12 10:19 10:21 10:26 10:29 10;31 10:33 10:36 10:39 10:41 10:45 10:49 10:56 10:57 10:59 11:00 11:01 11:03 11:10 11:13 11:15 11:20 11:22 11:24 11:27 11:31 11:32 11:33 11:41 11:55
June 9, 2011
12:30 AM 9:43 9:58 10:11 10:18 10:28 10:39 10:44 11:10 11:12 11:19 11:22 11:29 11:31 11:37 11:40 11:42 11:44 11:46 11:58 12:05 PM 12:06 12:11 12:13 12:16 12:20 12:26 12:27 1:16 1:21 1:22 1:29 1:31 1:40
At this point, MRAL’s comments were becoming so violent that David put him on moderation. MRAL posted one final comment at 5:59 PM and abandoned the thread.
In a thread with 1062 comments (so far), MRAL was responsible for 140 of them, or 13.18% of the total, just over one eighth. Leaving out his final comment, MRAL posted off and on for 25 hours and 1 minute, averaging one post every 10 minutes and 40 seconds.
That’s how you dominate a thread.
That’s how you dominate a thread.(Johnny)
Then boot him. Im not suggesting you meekly let him take over. Im just wondering why intelligent thoughtful people(supposedly) would continue to engage someone they obviously despise. It just doesnt seem rational. Hey, but what do I know, right?
Actually, ignoring bullies never works — it only emboldens them.(Amused)
I know.
Johnny
LMAO, I just looked back on all those numbers. If that aint mentally unstable pinch me.
@Titfortat:
Maybe this will help you understand my point of view. I am particularly forgiving to people on the internets, and if they bring up something reasonable to talk about, I will try and discuss it without regard to their past. I’m actually considering changing that for MRAL… But I still feel like I have to address each argument on its own merits. The second MRAL devolves into violence/whining/whatever, the argument has no meritsany longer and he is dissmissable again.
Kirby
Fair enough. I understand your view better now.
MRAL: I’ve gotten tired of this. I will urge you again to talk to a therapist/counselor. Seriously. It will help.
But no more discussion of your eye or your height. Seriously: none. If you mention it again, I will put you on temporary moderation. More than that, permanent moderation.
If you start a blog on the subject, I’ll let you link to it when appropriate.
Alright, fine.
Out of complete randomness
http://www.virtualfairy.com/wl/a25_2.gif
What animal does that silhouette look like to you? (it’s for a facebook game I play xD ) me and my friends think otter platypus, weasel, wolverine… from the side it looks like a ridic fat penguin xD the animals aren’t super cute cartoony animals tho, so it should look more or less like some sort of animal xD
Sry about the off topic :3
Clearly it’s a cat with a giant butt and only one ear.
Bunny.
The problem w/ Bunny is that there’s alrdy a number of rabbits in the game :\ (hare, lopeared bunny, brown bunny) but it could be another kind of rabbit
(i dunno much about rabbits)
Dog hanging it’s head out the car window when it’s going 40 mph or so.
Anthropomorphic duck trying to fly.
Pluto with a mouthful of ham sandwich.
Ham sandwich with a mouthful of Pluto.
It’s the head of a Swellow!
It’s the Oscar Mayer weinermobile.
A manatee seen swimming from below?
Heightsm in general and Intersectionality
David: I read the thread, so I know MRAL is on moderation with restrictions. So instead of posting on heightism (in general) and intersectionality here, which I was preparing, I posted on my Dreamwidth-if any of the Manboobers (???) is interested in a discussion, feel free to join in-I will note that I have all anonymous comments screened, and I will not be available for unscreening and moderation tomorrow because I’m spending all day grading AP exams-the discussion may not move very fast, but i’m not letting any trolls loose over there.
http://ithiliana.dreamwidth.org/1556667.html
hey MRAL, I’m going to list the heights of all of boyfriends for you (both my current and my exes) oh and I had to ask them for the numbers specifically for this purpose because I honestly didn’t know the height of any of them
so current bf 5’6
ex #1 5’8
ex#2 5’5
ex #3 5’10
ex#4 6’0
I went in chronological order there so ex#4 was my first bf. I actually did not choose to date him, he was the person who my mother attempted to arrange my marriage to. Here’s the deal MRAL. I’m extremely short. As in not even 5’0 short. The taller a guy is, the harder it is to have sex with him. I don’t like dating tall guys for this reason.
Even though I want to I can’t talk about my height, Futrelle has threatened me with banning.
Anyway this thread has gone way off topic so I’m linking to another Schwyzer post that I missed earlier:
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2011/06/10/older-men-younger-women-and-the-slide-into-invisibility/
Does this not remind you of fascism? Or at least totalitarianism? He wants young women to refuse to date and/or break up with all older men (probably breaking some hearts in the process) because it might hurt older women’s FEELINGS. Fuck him. That little fucking asshole.
@MRAL:
He isn’t trying to force young women to not date older men, so no fascism or totalitarianism. Even so, I personally don’t agree with his analysis. Telling young women and older men they can’t date because of its affect on other people is like saying a white and black man shouldn’t date because of its affect on others.
There is a problem with older women being viewed as “past their expiration date” and this is a mindset that needs to change, but Schwyzer isn’t providing a viable solution. No need to get violent though, MRAL, he is just stating his opinion, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I’m not being violent, I’m making an concentrated effort to get my anger issues under more control. I just don’t like him.
“Does this not remind you of fascism? Or at least totalitarianism?”
You need to start going to class kid, cause if you think that the, in my frank opinion bone-headed and pretentious, intellectualizing of the plot of “Something has Got to Give” is fascism then clearly you aren’t getting much schooling.
Honestly, MRAL, I way prefer older men (it takes much less energy to communicate with them, for starters)-but Schwyzer is right about the power dynamics. Even with a really great guy the younger woman, if she’s serious, will end up getting hurt. The situation does improve after women hit 25, as he suggests. But he’s also right that there’s a terrible perception about older women-that we’re resentful, jaded, bitter, and that everything is just so much easier and more pleasant with younger, more innocent women. Well, that’s certainly the case, but accepting that’s the way it should be puts men’s insecurities at the center of a relationship. Personally, I like guys who believe in themselves and can handle adults; the May-December women will feel the same way some day, too. It is easy to stroke a man’s ego, get a positive reaction, and feel all womanly about yourself, but that’s the behavior of a child, not a woman. Also, it encourages vanity, which is not attractive in men or women.
I only date boys who are younger than me. (but not like lots younger - my fiance is a year and a half younger than me. I think my largest ever age diff was like 4 years - I was 23 and he was 19). ONE time I made an exception and dated a guy who was older than me… by a month. It went terribly horribly wrong. So I went back to my “only younger boys” policy.
I totally agree with preferring younger men. I never even realized that I was “selecting’ younger men until I counted back in my mind and was surprised to discover that I have never dated anyone older than myself…..and have only dated one guy who was my own age. I usually stay in the “2-4 years younger” range, also (agreed with Plymouth).
And not to drag the heightism thing back from the dead, but from what I’ve seen….it’s mostly taller women who prefer taller men and it seems likely that perhaps MRAL is just NOTICING those women (and their choices) more than the women who either don’t care/like shorter men.
I can admit that I prefer somewhat taller men, but I’m also 5’7, like to wear heels, and mostly pick taller men because I’ve noticed the shorter ones are sensitive about MY height in comparison to theirs.
So I’m sure there’s some validity to MRAL saying that “many women prefer taller men”, but I don’t think he realizes that 9 times out of 10 they are choosing that way because of their OWN height….not a hatred of short guys.