All hail mikesteane, brave Reddit warrior and champion of the rights of men!
Found on the Men's Rights subreddit.
Posted on February 24, 2012, in antifeminism, I'm totally being sarcastic, misogyny, MRA, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 166 Comments.
Misogyny. I mock it.
I find a lot of it in what's called the "manosphere," a loose collection of Men's Rights, Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), and Pickup Artist (PUA) sites. That said, there are numerous posts here that don't have anything to do with MRAs, or PUAs or any of their ilk.
Contact me by clicking my head, above, or at futrelle [at] well.com
Enjoy!
David Futrelle
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I give you Ideologue Review, dumbest game concept writer ever! Also known as FactFinder, the guy who can never find a fact, ever.
“As I said, the vast majority of capitalists in the west are incredibly lazy and sloppy when it comes to actually arguing economic theory with a Marxist. Rather than actually dispute our points or try to address them, they just flail around and wonder why you didn’t just collapse in the face of their red baiting.”
Marxism gives you bees! And the worst part is they aren’t REALLY free bees!
Doctors and engineers earn relatively little compared to financiers. The highest-paid jobs are in finance and big corporate management — and incidentally, these are jobs that entail far, far less responsibility or expertise than engineering or medicine. Especially when you adjust for the cost of education and the number of hours that have to be invested into learning technical professions, they pay a pittance compared to “experts” who are worse at their jobs than a random generator. And incidentally, those highest-paid “professions” are thoroughly dominated by white men.
It’s amazing to me that people who screech the loudest about the market don’t understand the first thing about how it works. The market is a commercial expression of culture. That means that in a sexist society, men will get paid more for being men, even if the utilitarian value of what they do is questionable.
That means that in a sexist society, men will get paid more for being men, even if the utilitarian value of what they do is questionable.
Rather than actually dispute our points or try to address them, they just flail around and wonder why you didn’t just collapse in the face of their red baiting.
You mean like how you think a single doctor and engineer is less productive than a field worker? I think I did address that. If you had some revolutionary economic theory after that, I’m just not interested in how you want to spend my money.
Rather than actually dispute our points or try to address them, they just flail around and wonder why you didn’t just collapse in the face of their red baiting.
You mean like how you didn’t dispute the relative questions of productivity between doctors and engineers vs. bankers and CEOs?
Factfinder only eats things he makes himself in his laboratory. All other food is unnecessary.
Factfinder only eats things he makes himself in his laboratory. All other food is unnecessary.
Whatever gets you off, honey.
You mean like how you didn’t dispute the relative questions of productivity between doctors and engineers vs. bankers and CEOs?
You said that people who earn less tend to be more productive. You’re basically saying that charities should be sending farmhands and cashier clerks to volunteer in developing nations rather than doctors and scientists, because farmhands and cashiers earn less on average and hence are more productive.
Actually a farm hand who knew a lot about how to grow a specific crop would be a lot better than an engineer to send to a third world nation.
A doctor may be valuable when there is an epidemic going on but other times maybe not.
And both the engineer and doctor would need to know how to handle developing nation problems and limitations. Knowing how to read a MRI does little for a doctor in a remote village with a measles outbreak.
FF: Conflation my dear. I didn’t male either of the comments I referred to.
And are still 1: not answering those questions.
2: Conflating income with output.
Anecdote: I used to be a machinist. Machinists time, at my shop, was billed at 125 an hour. I, as a journeyman, was being paid 15 an hour.
The owner of the company (who didn’t found it, it was part of a court settlement), couldn’t run a machine, at all. The owner couldn’t quite a job. Couldn’t program a part. Didn’t know how to do assembly, or run a brake, or the stamping press, or deburr anything.
All the owner knew how to do was sign the checks.
There was a job family we did a lot of (laminate spacers for shimming something in communications sattelites for Hughes). I managed to figure out a way to cut ten minutes off each parts run. Since that job usually had about 40 runs to complete, that meant I saved the company 400 minutes, or about 6.6 hours.
Which meant the profit on the job went up by about 1, because of the way repeat jobs work (the job has a standing bid. When a customer wants a repeat, they just send an order, and the last quote is used. So the 6.6 hours we didn’t have to spend was still charged ($833), and the machine was free to be used on a different job (another $833). Let’s say we can put about half of the shared time as profit, so call it 1,200 per order.
We did about 50 version of that job in a year. Which means I made the company an extra 62,000 a year.
I was being paid, after overtime, about 35,000 a year.
So my employer, who could do none of that; knew, actually, nothing about the physical operations of the shop, got to pocket 62 thousand dollars, because I was on the job.
Which of us produced more?
Which of us took more money home?
What the fuck is a doctor going to do without support staff again? If there’s nobody to keep the hospital-space clean, nobody to handle all the other work, that needs doing (Tests, care, etc) all you really did was waste a lot of potential aid effort. My dad did a lot of this kind of thing for several years.
If a village needs a schoolhouse or a well, yes, they will benefit from having the help of properly trained engineers (My dad was an electrical engineer and a reservist; guess which of these two things prepared him to help poor, underdeveloped villages, and i’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t his electrical engineering degree), but there’s still a lot of hard manual labor to be done after that. The reserves didn’t just send him and call it a day, they sent his unit, because after something was designed, it had to actually be built.
What the shit do you think scientists do? Just randomly wander around until a divine voice hands them a problem’s solution? What are they there to do, exactly? Because there is no easy solution science can give to the fucked up situations in, for instance, africa. Some of it is plain old economic power, like the gold and diamond mines propping up shit that keeps white westerner’s wealthy and destroys the ability of local people to actually profit from what few natural resources they were given.
Yeah, jobs that belong to wealthier classes have contributed to improving developing nations (The carter foundation recently ended a disease in the region. Like, completely and utterly wiped it out), and that’s great, but a lot of things need straight up hard work, and it’s a cold comfort to those who, for instance, starved to death anyway, or died in another pointless fight that a disease was ended. Just because it doesn’t require college to learn something doesn’t mean it’s easy to actually do. It just means it takes less training to learn how to do it.
What the fuck is a doctor going to do without support staff again?
It’s just supply and demand - we don’t have enough people who can be doctors, but we have plenty of people who can be janitors. That doesn’t mean we don’t need janitors.
I’ve worked minimum wage jobs and I’ve worked ones which require some education. That doesn’t mean what I previously did was useless and certainly not easier - I have a lot of respect for the people who bring me my food - but it’s just stupid to say that I was more productive waiter than a software engineer.
Can we agree that one job which requires a college education will probably contribute more to society than, say, a McDonalds worker? Because I agree with you, there is a certain stigma associated with hard, manual work with a lot of people thinking they’re “too good” for it. Oftentimes that work takes more effort than the more technical stuff, and it certainly isn’t always as fulfilling. That does not mean manual labor is bad, but this whole pseudo-Marxist thing about how earning more is a evil is just fallacious.
>>Can we agree that one job which requires a college education will probably contribute more to society than, say, a McDonalds worker?
With the state of the economy these days, that McDonald’s worker probably HAS a college education…
Ya know, when I was growing up, garbo was the ‘ideal’ man’s job, honourable and respectable. It was looked down on to be ‘middle class’. Times change, ay.
So a garbo is a person who collects the garbage? Sorry, don’t really speak Aussie.
If that’s the case though I think it’s less a times change thing and more a different societies thing. America is really weird about class.
@CassandraSays: America is weird about class because of its national mythology of being a classless society. The only time people talk class is when people say that other people are fomenting class warfare against the rich…
Yep, sorry. Garbo is a garbage collector. it used to be a popular job with footballers, to keep fit. The job doesn’t exist anymore because we now have wheelie bins and the truck picks them up with a big claw.
Also, Milko is a milkman. But a postman is Postie. I don’t know why.
Yeah, moving here as a Scot who grew up steeped in British class politics was really weird. Especially since I quickly got a job in which I was working with good old fashioned East Coast blue-bloods. Think they’d have hired me if I hadn’t gone to boarding school? I was the only person at that company who didn’t graduate from an Ivy League university (because I went to Uni in the UK).
Classless society my ass.
Postmen are Posties in the UK too, but the milkman was just a milkman, when we still had them.
When I see garbage trucks here they still have people on them. Less people than they use to because of the newer equipment, I guess? But there are definitely people who pull the bins out to the truck and then roll them back again.
Never having been to the USA, I get my impressions of the country from movies - in the movies a person’s worth seems to be based on how much money they have, and nothing else. Is that a real thing?
The trucks in our town only have a driver, who has to get out if the bins get stuck or anything.
They still had men run behind and pick up bins, empty them into the truck, and put them back (and put the lid back on!) when I was a young adult. Those blokes were very, very fit!
“Never having been to the USA, I get my impressions of the country from movies – in the movies a person’s worth seems to be based on how much money they have, and nothing else. Is that a real thing?”
Hmm, this is where it gets complicated. You can definitely acquire a certain level of social power here by getting rich, but there’s still an established upper class that look down on new money and have their own social codes, mannerisms, etc. The way it’s different to say the UK is that most Americans don’t seem to be able to instantly spot upper class members of their own society in the way that everyone British can. It’s almost like the upper class here is partially hidden from everyone except themselves and the few people who interact with them directly. It’s really very odd.
I think in the US new money tends to have a better reputation than old money, actually, because our mythos includes “job creators” and “real Americans” (middle or working class). So the “ideal” American would probably have grown up working class (but not one of those really poor societal leeches), started a business, and gotten filthy rich from it.
Except among the actual blue-bloods, who’re every bit as snooty and exclusive as their equivalents anywhere else in my experience. That’s the odd disconnect - it’s like they’re totally separate from the rest of American society and have a totally different culture.
What an idiotic question. Did you follow this conversation at all?
Do you enjoy not understanding what people say, and is that why you do it so frequently?
FF: Can we agree that one job which requires a college education will probably contribute more to society than, say, a McDonalds worker?
Nope. I won’t so stipulate, because you are using a wildly divergent set of standards, and then trying to weasel when you say, Because I agree with you, there is a certain stigma associated with hard, manual work, after you did exactly that, by saying people who make more money, ipso facto are more productive members of society.
This is your idea of a decent response to some very specific critiques of your (lousy) argument, “can’t we all agree that people who go to college contribute more?
It’s both a topic change (since you were arguing income, not education) and wrong.
For anyone who wants a good examination of the way class works in the US, I commend, “Class” by Paul Fussell. It a bit dated (he wrote it in the ’80s) but much of it is still spot on.
The US is actually more class conscious than the UK, because, as Cassandra says, it’s not as visible, and the upper classes don’t want people who, “don’t belong” to sneak in.